[Drlee]

We are seeing the Israel besotted university administrators, speaking of their own students considered actions in support of Palestine, as being subject to "radical outside interests". This dismissal of the intellectual integrity of their students is appalling and they should be fired.

This whole stand off between administration and students takes me right back to my youth. Kent state, of course, comes to mind. No way those lovely students could have actually been against the war. Must be commies and their fellow travelers influencing the poor dears. Better get the National Guard to gun some down as a lesson to the "others" . After all. The US was just invading Cambodia to wipe out the creeping communist peril.

There was no excuse for the actions of Hamas in triggering this whole event. They should be wiped out to the man. But that does not justify Bebe trying to stay out of jail by outright killing tens of thousands of children and starving the rest.

And Putin just loves this. It is the masterstroke that will, very likely, put Trump back in the Whitehouse. Game, set and match.

[Unthinking Majority]

I suggest Googling it.

I'll assume you don't have an answer then and we can reject your argument.

So now that we have normalized investing in human rights abuses, you are arguing that we should continue to do so because it is normal.

If you argue that it is immoral to invest in companies from Israel, do you also argue that it is immoral to invest in any companies from middle eastern countries, Latin American and North American, and most Asian and European companies? To not do so is selective outrage. Should we divest all Chinese-made products too? If so, power off the device you're using immediately, sell your home and sleep in a ditch and cover yourself in dead leaves for warmth.

Note that you just acknowledged that universities invest in regimes that commit human rights abuses, but you see nothing wrong with that. This is an example of centrist acceptance of such support of such regimes.

No I said they invest in companies from countries whose governments commit human rights abuses. If you're going to invest in the markets, you're going to invest in companies from countries that have governments who commit human rights abuses, which is also different than investing in the regimes themselves.

If a pro-Palestine supporter wants to personally divest from Israeli companies that's fine, they have free will. Demanding your university's investments conform to your personal politics is unreasonable, narcissistic, and frankly ridiculous.

The real question is why do so many people care so much more about deaths and human rights abuses in Israel/Palestine compared to most other parts of the world where much worse things happen all the time. 5.4 million Africans died from the 2nd Congo War making it the deadliest conflict since WWII, but most people have never even heard of it. Divest from Africa?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Congo_War

Yes, they are being arrested fro protesting.

If you want to spread misinformation that's your choice.

[wat0n]

In the meantime, the US' left attempt to bring back numerus clausus continues:

[Unthinking Majority]

Just like the white supremacists in the 50's and 60's blocking the African-Americans from going to school. Disgusting antisemitic racists. Their civil rights are being violated. ARREST AND EXPEL THEM. Title VI of the Civil Rights Act legally demands universities protect these Jewish students from discrimination:

The clause says that no one in the United States shall, “on the ground of race, color or national origin,” face discrimination in programs that receive federal funding. This includes educational institutions, because even private universities receive federal funding. Title VI does not mention religion. But for nearly two decades, beginning in the George W. Bush administration, Title VI protections were extended to religious minorities including Sikhs, Muslims and Jews who faced discrimination based on their “actual or perceived shared ancestry or ethnic characteristics,” according to federal guidance that has been affirmed and expanded by the Biden administration.

https://jewishinsider.com/2023/11/title ... -students/

[Unthinking Majority]

All of a sudden these university encampment protestors are ok with occupying land that doesn't belong to them, checkpoints, blockades, "apartheid", restricting people's movement now?

[wat0n]

Harassment creating a hostile environment against Israeli students would definitely fall into the nationality clause under Title VI.

[Pants-of-dog]

I'll assume you don't have an answer then and we can reject your argument.


If you argue that it is immoral to invest in companies from Israel, do you also argue that it is immoral to invest in any companies from middle eastern countries, Latin American and North American, and most Asian and European companies?

Yes.

To not do so is selective outrage. Should we divest all Chinese-made products too? If so, power off the device you're using immediately, sell your home and sleep in a ditch and cover yourself in dead leaves for warmth.

No. It is not my fault we live in a capitalist society where investing in cruelty has been so normalized that it is very difficult to buy or invest in a way that does not support cruelty.

No I said they invest in companies from countries whose governments commit human rights abuses. If you're going to invest in the markets, you're going to invest in companies from countries that have governments who commit human rights abuses, which is also different than investing in the regimes themselves.

If a pro-Palestine supporter wants to personally divest from Israeli companies that's fine, they have free will. Demanding your university's investments conform to your personal politics is unreasonable, narcissistic, and frankly ridiculous.

The real question is why do so many people care so much more about deaths and human rights abuses in Israel/Palestine compared to most other parts of the world where much worse things happen all the time. 5.4 million Africans died from the 2nd Congo War making it the deadliest conflict since WWII, but most people have never even heard of it. Divest from Africa?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Congo_War

If you want to spread misinformation that's your choice.

Note that you just acknowledged that universities invest in regimes that commit human rights abuses, but you see nothing wrong with that. This is an example of centrist acceptance of such support of such regimes.

[KurtFF8]

After many such videos surfaced and the Title VI lawsuits started to pour in...

...And even then, there are schools - like Columbia - that have yet to call the police.

Now you're just denying reality considering that Columbia was the first of these universities to call the police.

Do people understand that people can commit illegal acts during their protesting? I can't just stand on your lawn overnight and hold a sign.

Firstly, a peaceful protest by students on their own campus is not an illegal act, so you're wrong on that.

There's protestors blocking roads

You would have been one of those people criticizing MLK if you were around in the 1960s.

Also no one gives a shit what Bill Maher thinks. He's been discredited for a long time now.

[Saeko]

[wat0n]

Now you're just denying reality considering that Columbia was the first of these universities to call the police.

Wrong, and if anything major Adams has said explicitly the onus falls on Columbia to request the city's help in dealing with the protests.

You would have been one of those people criticizing MLK if you were around in the 1960s.

Funny coming from those who want to segregate Jewish students and bar them from accessing campus.

[Unthinking Majority]

Yes.

Great, then demand that universities divest from all capital investments from companies of said countries or countries that support those countries, which is every single country in the world.

Also, put your money where your mouth is and sell any stocks/investments, bonds, GIC's etc you might own, and donate to charity any investment gains from your government pension contributions.

No. It is not my fault we live in a capitalist society where investing in cruelty has been so normalized that it is very difficult to buy or invest in a way that does not support cruelty.

It's not Columbia's fault either, so your entire argument can be rejected.

You're also assuming that any other economic system in human existence has been any better. Every communist society to exist is far more cruel regarding human rights, and no system prior to capitalism was any better regarding cruelty and war.

And yes it is your fault because you chose to move to and continue to live in a capitalist country. Put your money where your mouth is and try to move to Cuba, North Korea, Vietnam, or Laos, or maybe even China since it's at least half communist at this point. Fantastic human rights in the those regimes for you to enjoy.

Note that you just acknowledged that universities invest in regimes that commit human rights abuses, but you see nothing wrong with that. This is an example of centrist acceptance of such support of such regimes.

No I said they invest in companies from countries with governments that commit human rights abuses. I do not support the cruel actions of these regimes. There is likely some indirect benefit to a government from investing in a company from that country given that tax dollars remit to the government, and if any particular person wants to personally boycott a company or all companies from a certain country because that country's government does things that's against a specific person's interests then they are free to do that. But to ask a university to have selective outrage and divest from a specific country based on the personal political biases of a minority of students is unfair to all the other students and their own political biases. It's unworkable and ridiculous.

[Drlee]

Couple of quick points.

The entire divestment demand is nonsense. It was originally devised as a way to placate some folks while actually accomplishing nothing of substance. Truly nobody in finance and investment cares at all. Even the Israeli companies, who, if the truth were known, would not lose a farthing if every university in the US divested of all Israel based companies.

If the students were smart, instead of occupying the restroom and demanding that their college divest, they would organize a massive get-out-the-vote campaign on campuses across the country. That would scare the shit out of every politician in this country.

Trump lost Arizona by 10,000 votes. That is a pittance compared to the voting pool in Arizona's colleges and universities.

Supposing that they did this though....which way to go? Encourage students to vote for Trump and Israel gets an office in the Whitehouse. Encourage them to vote for Biden and Israel gets a private line to Biden. It is a conundrum for them, isn't it.

What will happen is that they will continue to do what they are doing thereby energizing Trump's base and rally it against what they see as preventing Jesus from returning. This defeats their purpose. And they are encouraging students not to vote for Biden which accomplishes the same thing.

Palestine is well and truly fucked. The best thing that these student could do to help Palestine is to go home and finish their homework.

[Unthinking Majority]

Firstly, a peaceful protest by students on their own campus is not an illegal act, so you're wrong on that.

It's an illegal act to trespass against school regulations by setting up an unauthorized apartheid occupation zone on campus property where all students are allowed to roam yet blocking certain students of certain ethnicities from entering this "zone".

According to Title VI of the 1964 Civil Rights Act, it's an illegal act to block students of certain races and religions from entering a campus or to generally discriminate against students based on race/religion, and universities have a legal obligation to abide by the act and protect the rights of these Jewish students by these racist shitbags.

Like I said, all of a sudden these pro-Palestinian campus protestors support illegally occupying land that doesn't belong to them, enforcing checkpoints, blockades, and enforcing apartheid. Some of them even openly support genocide (Oct 7, Hamas etc). But they want their schools to divest from Israeli companies for all these same reasons? Why should we take them seriously at all?

You would have been one of those people criticizing MLK if you were around in the 1960s.

MLK was the greatest American to ever live. But I wouldn't have supported him illegally blocking traffic. No American, regardless of race, is allowed to do that without authorization. That is not a right guaranteed by peaceful protest, it is disturbing the peace.

But here you are supporting the same actions as the white supremacists from the 50's and 60's blocking black students from entering campuses, intimidating and harassing them etc.

Also no one gives a shit what Bill Maher thinks. He's been discredited for a long time now.

Discredited by whom? The woke left and communists for not being nuts like they are? Lol.

[Deutschmania]

Columbia University is refusing to concede to the demands of the demonstrators . And direct action on the part of pro-Palestinian activists has really been accelerating .

Columbia University has rejected a demand to divest from Israel and has failed to reach an agreement with pro-Palestinian student protesters who are occupying a portion of the school’s New York City campus, according to a letter sent Monday morning to the community by President Minouche Shafik.

“All year, we have sought to facilitate opportunities for our students and faculty to engage in constructive dialogue, and we have provided ample space for protests and vigils to take place peacefully and without disruptions to academic life,” Shafik said. “But we must take into account the rights of all members of our community.”

Communications that the lead protest group posted to social media indicated that the university had issued a deadline of 2 p.m. Monday for students in the encampment to vacate the space and commit to following university rules or risk a yearlong suspension.

Protesting students voted at noon to make a collective decision to stay, according to the Columbia Spectator student newspaper, and the protest group, Columbia University Apartheid Divest, called a 1 p.m. rally on the campus near the encampment, posting pictures of signs that suggested that some individual students did not intend to acquiesce. Columbia University has rejected a demand to divest from Israel and has failed to reach an agreement with pro-Palestinian student protesters who are occupying a portion of the school’s New York City campus, according to a letter sent Monday morning to the community by President Minouche Shafik.

“All year, we have sought to facilitate opportunities for our students and faculty to engage in constructive dialogue, and we have provided ample space for protests and vigils to take place peacefully and without disruptions to academic life,” Shafik said. “But we must take into account the rights of all members of our community.”

Communications that the lead protest group posted to social media indicated that the university had issued a deadline of 2 p.m. Monday for students in the encampment to vacate the space and commit to following university rules or risk a yearlong suspension.

Protesting students voted at noon to make a collective decision to stay, according to the Columbia Spectator student newspaper, and the protest group, Columbia University Apartheid Divest, called a 1 p.m. rally on the campus near the encampment, posting pictures of signs that suggested that some individual students did not intend to acquiesce. involve both redirecting financial holdings and severing ties with Israeli academic institutions.

While the negotiators on both sides “worked in good faith to reach common ground,” Shafik wrote, the impasse meant that the university needed to turn its attention to ensuring a smooth conclusion to the school year.

“Please recall that many in this graduating class did not get a celebration when graduating from high school because of the pandemic, and many of them are the first in their families to earn a university degree. We owe it to all of our graduates and their loved ones to honor their achievement. We want to reassure our community who are trying to make plans that we will indeed hold a commencement,” she wrote. “For all of the reasons above, we urge those in the encampment to voluntarily disperse.” Jewish Telegraphic Agency

Columbia University students who took over an academic building early on Tuesday now face expulsion, a spokesperson for the university said, as tensions surrounding the students’ pro-Palestinian demonstration escalated.

The specter of expulsion came after dozens of protesters took over Hamilton Hall, an academic building on the New York campus, barricading the entrances and unfurling a Palestinian flag out of a window. “We made it very clear [on Monday] that the work of the university cannot be endlessly interrupted by protesters who violate the rules,” a Columbia spokesperson, Ben Chang, said. “Continuing to do so will be met with clear consequences. Protesters have chosen to escalate to an untenable situation – vandalizing property, breaking doors and windows, and blockading entrances – we are following through with the consequences we outlined yesterday.

“Students occupying the building face expulsion.”

Hamilton Hall was one of several buildings occupied during a 1968 civil rights and anti-Vietnam war protest on the campus. Now student protesters there have overtaken it once again, displaying a large banner that reads “Hind’s Hall”, renaming it in honor of Hind Rajab, a six-year-old Palestinian girl from Gaza City who was killed by Israeli forces earlier this year.

Posts on an Instagram page for protest organisers shortly after midnight urged people to protect the encampment protest on campus and join them at Hamilton Hall. Those signs of supports surfaced as the UN human rights chief said he was “troubled” by how law enforcement has dealt with the recent wave of campus demonstrations.

The student radio station, WKCR-FM, broadcast a play-by-play of the hall’s takeover – which occurred nearly 12 hours after Monday’s 2pm deadline for the protesters to leave an encampment of about 120 tents or face suspension.

Representatives for the university did not immediately respond to emails requesting comment early on Tuesday. But in a statement, the university’s public safety department said it had limited campus access to students living in residential buildings and essential employees, such as dining, public safety and maintenance staff.

The statement said there was a single access point in and out of campus.

Columbia’s pro-Palestinian protesters ignored the Monday ultimatum to abandon their encampment or risk suspension. The university said it started suspensions early on Monday evening.

“We have begun suspending students as part of this next phase of our efforts to ensure safety on our campus,” the university said in an update on its website. “Once disciplinary action is initiated, adjudication is handled by several different units within the university based on the nature of the offense.”

The ultimatum came after the university’s president, Minouche Shafik, announced that efforts to reach a compromise with protest organisers had failed. She said that the institution would not bow to demands to divest from Israel.

Universities across the US are grappling with how to clear out encampments as commencement ceremonies approach, with some continuing negotiations and others turning to force and ultimatums that have resulted in clashes with police. Dozens of people were arrested on Monday during protests at universities in Texas, Utah and Virginia, while Columbia said hours before the takeover of Hamilton Hall that it had started suspending students.

Demonstrators are sparring over the Israel-Hamas war and its mounting death toll, and the number of arrests at campuses nationwide is approaching 1,000 as the final days of class wrap up. The outcry is forcing colleges to reckon with their financial ties to Israel, as well as their support for free speech.

Some Jewish students say the protests have veered into antisemitism and made them afraid to set foot on campus. And one prominent supporter those voices are counting on is the US House speaker, Mike Johnson.

The Louisiana Republican on Tuesday accused pro-Palestinian protesters such as the ones at Columbia of going beyond their right to engage in “vigorous disagreement”.

“Shutting down the campuses, you know, control of buildings … at some point you cross the line, and they have,” Johnson said. “This is not protected free speech. This is violating the rights of others.”

At the University of Texas at Austin, an attorney said at least 40 demonstrators were arrested on Monday. The confrontation was an escalation on the 53,000-student campus in the state’s capital, where more than 50 protesters were arrested last week. Later on Monday, dozens of officers in riot gear at the University of Utah sought to break up an encampment outside the university president’s office that went up in the afternoon. Police dragged students off by their hands and feet, snapping the poles holding up tents and zip-tying those who refused to disperse. Seventeen people were arrested.

The university said it was against code to camp overnight on school property and that the students were given several warnings to disperse before police were called in.

The UN human rights chief said on Tuesday he was “troubled” by the heavy-handed tactics of security forces across US campuses.

“I am concerned that some of law enforcement actions across a series of universities appear disproportionate in their impacts,” Volker Turk said in a statement sent to journalists, in which he made reference to arrests and sanctions of students.

“It must be clear that legitimate exercises of the freedom of expression cannot be conflated with incitement to violence and hatred,” he added.

Human rights clinics at law schools at Columbia, Harvard, Yale, New York University, Cornell and others called recent actions taken by university administrations “the latest escalation in a wave of repression of student speech in support of Palestinian human rights”.

“Protection of freedom of expression and assembly are also central to our institutions’ educational missions. Retaliatory actions against students and suppression of freedom of expression and assembly interfere with a number of other core human rights, including, critically, the right to education,” a joint statement from the clinics said.

The plight of students who have been arrested has become a central part of protests, with the students and a growing number of faculty demanding amnesty for protesters. The Texas protest and others – including in Canada and Europe – grew out of Columbia’s early demonstrations that have continued. On Monday, student activists defied the 2pm deadline to leave the encampment. Instead, hundreds of protesters remained.

Columbia’s handling of the demonstrations has prompted federal complaints.

A class-action lawsuit on behalf of Jewish students alleges a breach of contract by Columbia, claiming the university failed to maintain a safe learning environment, despite policies and promises. It also challenges the move away from in-person classes and seeks quick court action requiring Columbia to provide security for the students.

Meanwhile, a legal group representing pro-Palestinian students is urging the US Department of Education’s civil rights office to investigate Columbia’s compliance with the Civil Rights Act of 1964 for how they have been treated.

A university spokesperson declined to comment on the complaints. The Guardian

[Pants-of-dog]

Great, then demand that universities divest from all capital investments from companies of said countries or countries that support those countries, which is every single country in the world.

Also, put your money where your mouth is and sell any stocks/investments, bonds, GIC's etc you might own, and donate to charity any investment gains from your government pension contributions.

This is you agreeing with me that the university is invested in human rights abuses and you are defending that.

It's not Columbia's fault either, so your entire argument can be rejected.

No one said it was

This does.not.chamge thw fact that universities have more financial choices to divest from bad things than your normal.person.

You're also assuming that any other economic system in human existence has been any better. Every communist society to exist is far more cruel regarding human rights, and no system prior to capitalism was any better regarding cruelty and war.

Whataboutism. Ignored

And yes it is your fault because you chose to move to and continue to live in a capitalist country. Put your money where your mouth is and try to move to Cuba, North Korea, Vietnam, or Laos, or maybe even China since it's at least half communist at this point. Fantastic human rights in the those regimes for you to enjoy.

Again, no. You are obviously too ignorant of my past to comment on it intelligently.

No I said they invest in companies from countries with governments that commit human rights abuses. I do not support the cruel actions of these regimes. There is likely some indirect benefit to a government from investing in a company from that country given that tax dollars remit to the government, and if any particular person wants to personally boycott a company or all companies from a certain country because that country's government does things that's against a specific person's interests then they are free to do that. But to ask a university to have selective outrage and divest from a specific country based on the personal political biases of a minority of students is unfair to all the other students and their own political biases. It's unworkable and ridiculous.

I addressed this.

[Unthinking Majority]

This is you agreeing with me that the university is invested in human rights abuses and you are defending that.

Only so much that engaging in any economic activity whatsoever is also supporting human rights abuses, given that buying a cup of coffee or an iPhone or anything else these students or anyone else buys contributes tax dollars to their government and/or other governments, whom all commit human rights abuses, as we've agreed.

So again, the point of the protests is ridiculous and hypocritical.

This does.not.chamge thw fact that universities have more financial choices to divest from bad things than your normal.person.

If students want their universities to invest more ethically there can be a debate around that, it just can't be selective based on the outrage of a particular set of students based on their own personal political agenda while ignoring everyone else's. It has to be consistent, and fair for all students. And no matter what they invest in, they're going to be supporting a governments that commits or supports human rights abuses.

If they want to invest in more green energy companies and divest from fossil fuels? Fine, at least that makes sense and is something the vast majority of students can probably agree on without targeting a specific ethnicity on campus. If they still don't agree because of some pro-oil student chuds and we have another political clash then they just need to drop it and not discriminate in investments. There's other controversial investments, like defense companies etc. It's a pandora's box.

Point is asking the university to act on the political interests of one minority student group to the political benefit of one and the detriment of another is a non-starter. They can throw all the law-breaking and regulation-breaking tantrums they want, they aren't going to get their way.

[wat0n]

[Pants-of-dog]

Only so much that engaging in any economic activity whatsoever is also supporting human rights abuses, given that buying a cup of coffee or an iPhone or anything else these students or anyone else buys contributes tax dollars to their government and/or other governments, whom all commit human rights abuses, as we've agreed.

So again, the point of the protests is ridiculous and hypocritical.

By this token, the people fighting for the abolition of slavery during the slavery era were all ridiculous and hypocritical.

Or, we could see it as the protesters asking for real change instead of some minor irrelevancy.

If students want their universities to invest more ethically there can be a debate around that, it just can't be selective based on the outrage of a particular set of students based on their own personal political agenda while ignoring everyone else's. It has to be consistent, and fair for all students. And no matter what they invest in, they're going to be supporting a governments that commits or supports human rights abuses.

No. People do not have to jump through whatever moralistic hoops you create.

If this were the case, Congress would be sending antiracism monitors instead of antisemitism monitors to campuses.

If they want to invest in more green energy companies and divest from fossil fuels? Fine, at least that makes sense and is something the vast majority of students can probably agree on without targeting a specific ethnicity on campus. If they still don't agree because of some pro-oil student chuds and we have another political clash then they just need to drop it and not discriminate in investments. There's other controversial investments, like defense companies etc. It's a pandora's box.

Well. there is the whole genocide going on right now that is probably providing some motivation to stop this particular problem right away.

Point is asking the university to act on the political interests of one minority student group to the political benefit of one and the detriment of another is a non-starter. They can throw all the law-breaking and regulation-breaking tantrums they want, they aren't going to get their way.

How does divestment hurt anyone?

[wat0n]

So we see that even here leftists like @Pants-of-dog excuse and justify the harassment faced by Jewish students in these protests in an attempt to enforce numerus clausus.

Now it seems those at Columbia crossed a line by taking over and vandalizing University property, and the school finally called the NYPD in.

[Unthinking Majority]

Lord of the Flies was a good book and film.