[Pants-of-dog]

Netanyahu is a product of Hamas. When you give Gazans back their land that they attacked you from in 1967, and they elect Hamas who then continually use Gaza to attack Israeli civilians for 20 years, its understandable that Israelis no longer feel as peace-loving as they did when giving back Gaza and searching for a 2-state solution because all it did was make extremists more powerful in their attempts to genocide you. And so Isrselis turned to extremists to defend them from the Gazan and West Bank extremists.

Hamas is a product of the fact that most Palestinians including virtually all of their leaders have never supported or accepted the existence of a Jewish state in the region in any form on any inch of land and reject any 2-state solution outright and always have, going back a century. You can't reason or negotiate with people who don't want you to exist even if you're indigenous to the area like Jews are.

The Arab militaries and jihadist groups have kept attacking the Jews/Israel for a century. At some point you probably get tired of people trying to genocide you and being unwilling to negotiate in good faith and finally just tell them to go f*ck themselves, which is where we're at with Netanyahu and West Bank settlements. Doesn't make it right but the Palestinians never seem to put any blame on their leaders and militias for their problems.

Then please show how settler colonialism is not an issue. Thanks.

[Saeko]

[Unthinking Majority]

Then please show how settler colonialism is not an issue. Thanks.

Are you a settler or colonist if you're indigenous to the area? One can call either the Arabs or Israelis as "settlers" based on a certain point of view. Jerusalem wasn't just built a few decades ago, nor fully by one ethnic group The Muslim caliphate conquered Israel around 650 CE. Jewish rule of the land of Israel pre-dates that by well over 2000 years.

The problem of the conflict is based around 2 groups fighting over the same ancient buildings, land, territory where both have roots stretching back thousands of years. Who build the Temple Mount? Who build the Dome of the Rock? This is basically the 9th iteration of the Crusades.

[Pants-of-dog]

Are you a settler or colonist if you're indigenous to the area? One can call either the Arabs or Israelis as "settlers" based on a certain point of view. Jerusalem wasn't just built a few decades ago, nor fully by one ethnic group The Muslim caliphate conquered Israel around 650 CE. Jewish rule of the land of Israel pre-dates that by well over 2000 years.

The problem of the conflict is based around 2 groups fighting over the same ancient buildings, land, territory where both have roots stretching back thousands of years. Who build the Temple Mount? Who build the Dome of the Rock? This is basically the 9th iteration of the Crusades.

I would suggest clearly defining settler colonialism first and then showing how it is not relevant.

Here, you seem to have suggested that both sides have engaged in settler colonialism in the past.

That may or may not be the case, but it would not contradict the claim that the violence is caused by the structure of settler colonialism.

[Unthinking Majority]

.

[Potemkin]

.

An interesting point, and well put.

[Rich]

Netanyahu is a product of Hamas. When you give Gazans back their land that they attacked you from in 1967, and they elect Hamas who then continually use Gaza to attack Israeli civilians for 20 years,

What do you mean, when Gazans attacked in 1967?

And what on earth do you mean Netanyahu is a product of Hamas? That makes no sense. Hitler was a product of the Liberals, he doesn't really seem to have broken with the SPD until the Liberals forced them to sign the Versailles Treaty in July 1918., anyone can see that, unless you're a complete cretin. But how do you get to Netanyahu is a product of Hamas?

[wat0n]

Netanyahu was elected the first time (1996) at least in part due to the suicide bombings by Hamas in the first half of the 1990s. He was then elected again in 2009 also, at least in part, due to Cast Lead and the illustration that the withdrawal from Gaza had failed to aid in bringing peace (or at least quiet). Netanyahu was firmly against the Gaza withdrawal and quit his post as Finance Minister once it became clear it was going to happen so it's not a particularly odd outcome.

[Pants-of-dog]

Yes, since the violence precedes both Hamas and Netanyahu, it logically follows that neither are the cause, and this dictates that the violence will continue after the two are replaced by other agents of action.

[wat0n]

If we go by the history, violence will stop when Palestinian irredentists stop it.

[Pants-of-dog]

I see the argument has shifted from “It is caused by Netanyahu and Hamas” to “It is all the fault of the Palestinians”.

[wat0n]

Weird, I thought you wanted to discuss violence predating Netanyahu and Hamas. If we go by the history of violence in the region, it is quite evident violence was started by Palestinian irredentists even before the State of Israel was established.

If you want to discuss why violence is still ongoing, the answer is not radically different: Israeli and Palestinian irredentists.

[Pants-of-dog]

Any history that intentionally leaves settler colonialism out of the picture is reductionist and flawed.

[wat0n]

Right, for instance the "settler colonialism" that explains why the majority of Palestinians are Muslims and have been since the Middle Ages.

Or what, are we to just ignore that Jews were used as punching bags from time to time just like in Europe and we should pretend that this had nothing to do with the advent of Zionism?

Or this so-called settler colonialism can be just arbitrarily shrugged out? Kind of weird, given that you're certainly not applying this standard in Canada or elsewhere in the Americas.

[Unthinking Majority]

What do you mean, when Gazans attacked in 1967?

I mean the Arabs attacked Israel from Gaza (controlled by Egypt at the time) in 1967, along with many other fronts in the war.

And what on earth do you mean Netanyahu is a product of Hamas? That makes no sense. Hitler was a product of the Liberals, he doesn't really seem to have broken with the SPD until the Liberals forced them to sign the Versailles Treaty in July 1918., anyone can see that, unless you're a complete cretin. But how do you get to Netanyahu is a product of Hamas?

[/quote]
I explained it in my post. If after Israel gave control of Gaza back to the Arabs in 2005 (which Israel had occupied since they had been attacked from Gaza during the 1967 war) and the Gazans did not democratically elect an antisemitic genocidal jihadist terrorist group like Hamas whose raison d'etre is the destruction of Israel and who have continually attacked Israeli civilians indiscriminately using rockets etc since being elected, do you really think Israelis would feel any need to elect a rightwing hawkish hard-liner asshole like Netanyahu?

The last time Israelis elected PM's that put out olive branches for real peace it led to the 2nd intifada following the failure at Camp David, and then Israel made a major concession by giving control to Gaza back to Palestinians and allowed them to have elections and form a government. Didn't really go well did it? All it did was give more power to the jihadists and the people that support them.

So if you lived in Israel, and you're surrounded by Arabs nations that want to destroy you, and you're dodging rockets while walking your children to school, would you vote for the peace-loving leftwing dove or the hawkish rightwing hard-liner who is an asshole but you know is more likely to be able to protect you from everyone around you who is trying to kill you and your family?

[Pants-of-dog]

Right, for instance the "settler colonialism" that explains why the majority of Palestinians are Muslims and have been since the Middle Ages.

1. It is not clear that settler colonialism is the cause of Islamic belief among Palestinians. There are many ways by which a religion can spread.

2. Even if it did happen, it would be impossible to argue that settler colonialism against Israelis is still a thing, since settler colonialism requires a certain power dynamic where one group has all the economic power.

Or what, are we to just ignore that Jews were used as punching bags from time to time just like in Europe and we should pretend that this had nothing to do with the advent of Zionism?

Settler colonialism against Jews could possibly have been a cause of Zionism. If so, then this would be an indirect effect.

Or this so-called settler colonialism can be just arbitrarily shrugged out? Kind of weird, given that you're certainly not applying this standard in Canada or elsewhere in the Americas.

Since I have years of making this claim against Canada that can be verified by looking at this forum and searching, this is either a vast misunderstanding on your part or deliberate deception.

For the record: Canada and Chile (my own home countries) are both settler colonialist states. So is Australia, and (to my knowledge) all of the countries of the Americas.

[Rich]

I mean the Arabs attacked Israel from Gaza (controlled by Egypt at the time) in 1967, along with many other fronts in the war.

I can't say its a conflict I've really studied. My impression was that the conflict started with a major air raid by a a large portion of the Israeli air-force heading out west over the Mediterranean and then looping round south to come at the Egyptian air bases from the west. I thought this was followed up by a major assault into the Sinai. My impression was that the conflict in Gaza was not initiated, by an Arab attack from Gaza, but an assault by the Israeli 84th Armoured division into Gaza.

Are my impressions wrong?

[wat0n]

1. It is not clear that settler colonialism is the cause of Islamic belief among Palestinians. There are many ways by which a religion can spread.

We went through this, and it is not in dispute that Islam spread as a result of "colonialist" policies.

2. Even if it did happen, it would be impossible to argue that settler colonialism against Israelis is still a thing, since settler colonialism requires a certain power dynamic where one group has all the economic power.

So if Native Americans had all economic power, they would become the settler colonialists?

And when the initial European colonists had little economic power relative to civilizations like the Incas or Aztecs (demonstrably true) they were not, in fact, settler colonists?

Since I have years of making this claim against Canada that can be verified by looking at this forum and searching, this is either a vast misunderstanding on your part or deliberate deception.

For the record: Canada and Chile (my own home countries) are both settler colonialist states. So is Australia, and (to my knowledge) all of the countries of the Americas.

Then why leave out the "settler-colonialism" that effectively served to spread Islam in the Levant, which was similar to how Christianity was spread in the Americas?

[Pants-of-dog]

We went through this, and it is not in dispute that Islam spread as a result of "colonialist" policies.

And not all colonialism is settler colonialism. So again, we have no idea if settler colonialism took place before the current structure.

So if Native Americans had all economic power, they would become the settler colonialists?

No. They would need more than that. Like a totally different history.

And when the initial European colonists had little economic power relative to civilizations like the Incas or Aztecs (demonstrably true) they were not, in fact, settler colonists?

Then why leave out the "settler-colonialism" that effectively served to spread Islam in the Levant, which was similar to how Christianity was spread in the Americas?

See above.

——————-

The UN has discovered that some of the bodies in the Nasser hospital mass grave were buried with their hand tied behind their backs. Since the only militant group in the area was the IDF (who had isolated the hospital before any burials began), it is almost certain that the IDF killed these people.

And now that the IDF has forced a majority of the population of Gaza into Rafah, the bombing of Rafah has begun, before any evacuation. Only the discussion of the plan for evacuation has begun.

[wat0n]

And not all colonialism is settler colonialism. So again, we have no idea if settler colonialism took place before the current structure.

Oh yes, your dishonest disregard for what you label as settler colonialism when done by Europeans and Jews.

No. They would need more than that. Like a totally different history.

Like?

The UN has discovered that some of the bodies in the Nasser hospital mass grave were buried with their hand tied behind their backs. Since the only militant group in the area was the IDF (who had isolated the hospital before any burials began), it is almost certain that the IDF killed these people.

And now that the IDF has forced a majority of the population of Gaza into Rafah, the bombing of Rafah has begun, before any evacuation. Only the discussion of the plan for evacuation has begun.

Where can I read about this?