- 05 May 2024 19:38
#15314399
Indeed, then you understand why Jews are less safe in Yemen than in Israel and how there's a history of that having nothing to do with Israel?
Sure, just like ISIS doesn't recognize the authority of the governments of Syria or Iraq (to name a couple).
And the people of Mea Shearim can vote in Israel. They're Israeli citizens AFAIK, and those who aren't can easily get citizenship.
Sure, against the Nazi occupiers. Nothing wrong with that.
But the US is not an occupier in its own territory and even pro-Palestine protesters can vote. Or are you saying we should all be able to riot and force our will on everyone else to get what we want even if we just don't win elections?
Ask Henry David Thoreau, and particularly why he accepted jail.
So the Mandatory government, and then the Ottoman one before it, did not own public land?
Please quote me saying Israel owns Gaza or the West Bank. Israel does not occupy Gaza but it doesn't own it either, and Israel certainly occupies the West Bank.
Interesting way to whitewash ethnic cleansing.
One standard for Jews, another for Arabs it seems.
Then why did Muslims also attack the Jews of Hebron long before Zionism's rise as a 19th century nationalist political movement?
This also does not explain why is it that Jews were a discriminated minority even in Ottoman rule.
Herzl is the father of Zionism. Jews supporting Israel's existence undoubtedly agree with Herzl there, because he was proven right.
So it's all fake, even when students themselves report instances of antisemitism and harassment. I wonder what will come next.
That is not what Israel represents, though. What Israel represents is an expression of the self-determination of the Jewish people.
And yes, they are calling for the destruction of Israel as a state and not simply a change in policy. They are open in their opposition to the two-state solution, so this is not even arguable.
Actually there were already protests and antisemitic incidents even before Israel entered Gaza.
This type of gaslighting is unsurprising.
It is also free speech to demand the firing of racists, and to expose them more generally.
It seems free speech is, again, not good when the "bad" Jews do it, even when they are the majority.
Yes, and if you try to block Jewish students from accessing campus it is also illegal. However, this is not speech but actually impeding freedom of movement and discrimination when providing services.
Do you understand the difference between both?
No, I don't approve demolitions.
Sherlock Holmes wrote:I wasn't ignoring it, I accepted that Jews have been victimized in the past, this is true of many races and cultures, look at American Indians or Australian Aborigines for example, plenty of ethnic cleansing there. Furthermore while were on the topic, Jews were not the only victims of mass extermination campaigns during WW2 and there was more than a single Holocaust.
Indeed, then you understand why Jews are less safe in Yemen than in Israel and how there's a history of that having nothing to do with Israel?
Sherlock Holmes wrote:Well I think they'd argue with you here. First they do not acknowledge the state authority to which they are subjected. Many such Jews lived peacefully in Palestine living with Arabs and had done so for centuries. They did not want a state to be imposed upon them, a government orchestrated by the West to be imposed upon them. They were not afforded a vote, a democratic process, instead the state was created against the will of the majority, by the UN under the direct manipulation of the former colonial powers.
Sure, just like ISIS doesn't recognize the authority of the governments of Syria or Iraq (to name a couple).
And the people of Mea Shearim can vote in Israel. They're Israeli citizens AFAIK, and those who aren't can easily get citizenship.
Sherlock Holmes wrote:So the Jews who rioted during the Warsaw uprising were breaking the law?
Sure, against the Nazi occupiers. Nothing wrong with that.
But the US is not an occupier in its own territory and even pro-Palestine protesters can vote. Or are you saying we should all be able to riot and force our will on everyone else to get what we want even if we just don't win elections?
Sherlock Holmes wrote:Why?
Ask Henry David Thoreau, and particularly why he accepted jail.
Sherlock Holmes wrote:The "government" did not own anything if that government is itself illegitimate. As I explained the majority had no say in the matter, no vote about who or what form of government, many wanted no government, did not want change imposed upon them by a coalition of former terrorist organizations who advocated Jew supremacy. So no, the "government" did not own anything not in any legal sense and more than Germany "owned" Paris during their occupation of it.
So the Mandatory government, and then the Ottoman one before it, did not own public land?
Sherlock Holmes wrote:The Israelis do not own Gaza, they do not own the West Bank, they illegally occupy it according to international law (being an advocate of law and order I am fascinated to see how you defend this).
Please quote me saying Israel owns Gaza or the West Bank. Israel does not occupy Gaza but it doesn't own it either, and Israel certainly occupies the West Bank.
Sherlock Holmes wrote:The events in Hebron were precipitated by fear, fear that began when the British made the Balfour Declaration perceived as a grave threat to many in Palestine (and look, their fears were well founded).
Interesting way to whitewash ethnic cleansing.
One standard for Jews, another for Arabs it seems.
Sherlock Holmes wrote:All of these hostilities do not arise form Muslims hating Jews, they are the result of the divide and conquer policy of the colonial powers.
Then why did Muslims also attack the Jews of Hebron long before Zionism's rise as a 19th century nationalist political movement?
Sherlock Holmes wrote:The West facilitated mass immigration of Jews into Palestine, this was planned years before between the British and the Zionists. That led to a rapid change in demographics, none of which was natural but as a result of external politics.
Just like South Africa, Israel was created as a majority ruled by a minority, prior to Israel's creation the population were not invited to vote for a government, it was imposed, undemocratically imposed. The region was partitioned and if you happened to be non-Jewish living in a Jewish partition, tough, you'd better get used to being inferior.
This also does not explain why is it that Jews were a discriminated minority even in Ottoman rule.
Sherlock Holmes wrote:Herzl says nothing about Jew supremacist ideology. The persecution of Jews in history is not contested, certainly not by me. I agree with Herzl, many did but nothing Herzl said corresponds to Israeli ideology today.
Herzl is the father of Zionism. Jews supporting Israel's existence undoubtedly agree with Herzl there, because he was proven right.
Sherlock Holmes wrote:You mean "claiming so" I think. There is a powerful Zionist lobby, to overlook that is to err.
So it's all fake, even when students themselves report instances of antisemitism and harassment. I wonder what will come next.
Sherlock Holmes wrote:I disagree, since "Israel" today represents racist, apartheid Zionism, it is no more wrong to call for the destruction of that ideology than it was wrong to call for the destruction of the Third Reich. Calling for the destruction of the Third Reich, wiping it from the face of earth, is not understood by any sensible person to mean the destruction of Germany or its population, the meaning is pretty obvious. Of course the Zionist lobby loves to portray any criticism of the racist ideology as "calling for the destruction of Israel" that is a lie, no student protester has said any such thing, what they do say and what I say, is that the ideology, the nature of the state today, must be destroyed in EXACTLY the same way that Nazi ideology and the cult of the Third Reich needed to be destroyed.
That is not what Israel represents, though. What Israel represents is an expression of the self-determination of the Jewish people.
And yes, they are calling for the destruction of Israel as a state and not simply a change in policy. They are open in their opposition to the two-state solution, so this is not even arguable.
Sherlock Holmes wrote:Starting on October the 7th the Zionist lobby began harassing anti-Zionists, before any actual campus protest had begun. Anyone not doing their bidding became a target, they were calling for the dismissal of University heads just because they would not do the Zionist bidding, unless the said "We condemn the unprovoked attacks by Hamas" and so on. This began immediately, harassment and persecution. One must do as the Zionists say or they will be labelled antisemitic and once that label is thrown at you all serious discussion is over, and that's the intention.
Actually there were already protests and antisemitic incidents even before Israel entered Gaza.
This type of gaslighting is unsurprising.
Sherlock Holmes wrote:As is seeking the dismissal of people who object to Israel's racist ideology, this too is wrong yet began on October 7th. Anyone who argued that babies were not beheaded, was persecuted, anyone who said that the IDF killed Jews along with Hamas when they attempted a rescue was persecuted.
It is also free speech to demand the firing of racists, and to expose them more generally.
It seems free speech is, again, not good when the "bad" Jews do it, even when they are the majority.
Sherlock Holmes wrote:And racism is illegal, if you try to prevent blacks from coming into a store or deny blacks the same service you provide whites, that's against the law - it's odd why you don't know this.
Yes, and if you try to block Jewish students from accessing campus it is also illegal. However, this is not speech but actually impeding freedom of movement and discrimination when providing services.
Do you understand the difference between both?
Sherlock Holmes wrote:Once again, you have not responded to my questions about this:
Do you or do you not approve of this policy? if you refuse to answer, refuse to condemn it then I will assume you approve of this.
No, I don't approve demolitions.