[Pants-of-dog]

No one has mentioned any laws, nor explained how they impact the current genocide.

Israeli right of return laws have nothing to do with Ottoman laws, and the Israeli laws are evidence of ethnic cleansing.

[wat0n]

Why would anyone try to draw a relationship between Ottoman laws and a non-existent genocide?

Also, laws of return are fairly common in Europe. If that's your big proof, you're in a very bad spot.

But again, one cannot expect more from those who believe mass rape and murder are just examples of legitimate resistance.

[Pants-of-dog]

And still we have no example of an Ottoman law that has nay impact on the current genocide, sorry , “conflict”.

[wat0n]

I already did, in fact, went as far as to provide a source.

But I guess the only "explanations" @Pants-of-dog cares about are those that vindicate, err sorry, "explain" mass murder of Jews.

[Pants-of-dog]

No wonder @wat0n did not quote from the source, since it is clear that Zionists used the existing Ottoman law system to displace many Palestinians of their land and was very helpful in building the current settler colonialism system.

So the only impact was decades ago and the only negative effects targeted Palestinians.

[wat0n]

Oh so now buying land under Ottoman law was colonialism too. It's almost as if the mere presence of Jews in Palestine was colonialism for @Pants-of-dog.

Also, Ottoman land law initially restricted land purchases by Jews with restrictions being dropped towards the end of the 19th century.

[Pants-of-dog]

Using existing laws to dispossess peasants of their land and have it taken over by people from outside the country and nation, for the purposes of establishing another nation or country, does not have to be colonialism, but it certainly makes colonialism easier, regardless if we define it as colonialism or not.

So if the wish is to believe that this large scale land transfer was not colonialism, feel free.

[wat0n]

@Pants-of-dog those laws were Ottoman laws, which you claimed was not a settler colonialist regime.

It is not colonialism to legally buy land.

[Pants-of-dog]

So in the Israel example, we see that the new structure of settler colonialism only kept those property laws that helped build the new structure, and then got rid of those property laws once the new structure was in place.

[wat0n]

The property laws are still largely in place, even if some terms changed.

Just like in Ottoman and then Mandatory times, most land is actually owned by the state and residents lease it to use it. Under this system, property taxes are just rent payments.

Most importantly, property ownership dating from Ottoman times has been recognized by the Ottomans, the British and the Israelis.

[Potemkin]

I do not think Roman actions still have an impact on the ongoing genocide today.

You’re seriously claiming that the fact that the Jewish people were expelled from Judea by the Romans has nothing to do with Zionism, the project to reverse what the Romans had done by repopulating that same territory with Jews?

[Pants-of-dog]

You’re seriously claiming that the fact that the Jewish people were expelled from Judea by the Romans has nothing to do with Zionism, the project to reverse what the Romans had done by repopulating that same territory with Jews?

Other than the obvious fact that it created the initial separation, the laws have no impact, nor does any Roman decision or policy or historical fact have an impact on how settler colonialism is being played out or the dynamics involved in this conflict.

[wat0n]

That is kind of the big thing, isn't it? The fact many Jews were expelled by the Romans.

But @Pants-of-dog does have a point, this alone isn't the only reason why the conflict goes on. Neither is the expansion of Islam into the Levant, the rule of the Ottoman Empire, the second-class status of Jews, Christians and the other People of the Book under Islamic law and the British Mandate - these all contributed to it but all those responsible are dead and people in the present-day cannot blame dead people for their problems forever. If the conflict goes on is to a large extent because of the existence of irredentists among both Israelis and Palestinians, and that moderates are unwilling and/or unable to rein them in. Particularly in the case of the Palestinians, where irredentists have effectively built their own military forces, whereas in Israel's case it's more due to the bad design of its electoral system (which leads to both having broken political systems).

[Potemkin]

That is kind of the big thing, isn't it? The fact many Jews were expelled by the Romans.

But @Pants-of-dog does have a point, this alone isn't the only reason why the conflict goes on. Neither is the expansion of Islam into the Levant, the rule of the Ottoman Empire, the second-class status of Jews, Christians and the other People of the Book under Islamic law and the British Mandate - these all contributed to it but all those responsible are dead and people in the present-day cannot blame dead people for their problems forever. If the conflict goes on is to a large extent because of the existence of irredentists among both Israelis and Palestinians, and that moderates are unwilling and/or unable to rein them in. Particularly in the case of the Palestinians, where irredentists have effectively built their own military forces, whereas in Israel's case it's more due to the bad design of its electoral system (which leads to both having broken political systems).

“The past is never dead. It’s not even past. All of us labor in webs spun long before we were born, webs of heredity and environment, of desire and consequence, of history and eternity.” - William Faulkner

[wat0n]

“The past is never dead. It’s not even past. All of us labor in webs spun long before we were born, webs of heredity and environment, of desire and consequence, of history and eternity.” - William Faulkner

Indeed, but that doesn't suddenly exonerate our generation from our responsibility.

[Potemkin]

Indeed, but that doesn't suddenly exonerate our generation from our responsibility.

This isn’t about exonerating anyone. It’s about understanding the historical roots of our present situation. If we refuse to understand history, then we are condemned to repeat it.

[Pants-of-dog]

The Roman expulsion of the Jews is irrelevant because in the intervening centuries, Jews returned many times and thereby negated the effects of said expulsion.

[Rich]

If the conflict goes on is to a large extent because of the existence of irredentists among both Israelis and Palestinians, and that moderates are unwilling and/or unable to rein them in. Particularly in the case of the Palestinians, where irredentists have effectively built their own military forces, whereas in Israel's case it's more due to the bad design of its electoral system (which leads to both having broken political systems).

The great irony here is that you @wat0n like Hamas area a Palestinian irredentist. Your two state solution requires the ripping up of huge numbers Jewish settlements. Many of the Jewish settlers were born in these settlements, some of these settlers have parents that were born in those settlements. And this is just to get to a 4 bantustan solution.

Look I know for many people out there both in Israel but through out the world, the two state solution is a beautiful belief. It gives them great comfort. I'm familiar with these sorts of belief. Both my parents were intelligent people. They like billions of people over the last two millennia, many of them highly intelligent believed that Jesus was coming back. Now I doubt that Jesus was ever here in the first place, but I know with absolute certainty that Jesus is not coming. The two state solution is like the second coming, it doesn't matter how many people believe in it. It doesn't matter how comforting it is. its not going to happen.

The problem is to even start you'd have to rip up a huge number of settlements in order to deliver a deal that for the overwhelming majority of Palestinian would be totally unacceptable as a long term solution. You would have to start a civil war amongst Jews to deliver something that the Palestinians and their supports would consider a sick joke.

[Potemkin]

The Roman expulsion of the Jews is irrelevant because in the intervening centuries, Jews returned many times and thereby negated the effects of said expulsion.

Did they form the majority of the population, or did they have their own national government?

[wat0n]

The Roman expulsion of the Jews is irrelevant because in the intervening centuries, Jews returned many times and thereby negated the effects of said expulsion.

It actually is relevant, since the expulsion also led to the end of any meaningful measure of Jewish self-rule in the region until the establishment of Israel. Or what, you think that if the Romans had not managed to conquer the region there would be any Palestinians to speak of? They'd all be just Jews.

Also, was this Roman expansion and conquest settler colonialism?

This isn’t about exonerating anyone. It’s about understanding the historical roots of our present situation. If we refuse to understand history, then we are condemned to repeat it.

In practice, though, it is used to avoid responsibility.

:) The great irony here is that you @wat0n like Hamas area a Palestinian irredentist. Your two state solution requires the ripping up of huge numbers Jewish settlements. Many of the Jewish settlers were born in these settlements, some of these settlers have parents that were born in those settlements. And this is just to get to a 4 bantustan solution.

Look I know for many people out there both in Israel but through out the world, the two state solution is a beautiful belief. It gives them great comfort. I'm familiar with these sorts of belief. Both my parents were intelligent people. They like billions of people over the last two millennia, many of them highly intelligent believed that Jesus was coming back. Now I doubt that Jesus was ever here in the first place, but I know with absolute certainty that Jesus is not coming. The two state solution is like the second coming, it doesn't matter how many people believe in it. It doesn't matter how comforting it is. its not going to happen.

The problem is to even start you'd have to rip up a huge number of settlements in order to deliver a deal that for the overwhelming majority of Palestinian would be totally unacceptable as a long term solution. You would have to start a civil war amongst Jews to deliver something that the Palestinians and their supports would consider a sick joke.

It is precisely because I'm not an irredentist that I accept Israel cannot have everything. That realistically does indeed need to uproot settlers, as it's unlikely they'd be able to live peacefully with their neighbors or be treated equally by a Palestinian state.

This in turn also implies the Palestinians accepting any right to return will be limited.