[Vanasalus]

The most-Serbian Party?

Nice joke.

[Bosanac]

Weird thread, but you know my answer.

[Doomhammer]

Weird thread, but you know my answer.

Location: At the Masjid

Positive?

Beirut is cooler than you.

Yes but he's not here right now.

[Aekos]

Doomy, a Turk would be expected to think positively of Turkey.

[Doomhammer]

Doomy, a Turk would be expected to think positively of Turkey.

He's a Bosniak - a Muslim but not necessarily Turkish.

Besides, if his sympathy for Turkey (if any) is based on religion, then it is meaningless (to me).

[Varilion]

Positive
I don't like too much their actual government, but all the turkish that I know are okay.

[Vanasalus]

Besides, if his sympathy for Turkey (if any) is based on religion, then it is meaningless (to me).

Why? Like it or not. Religion is an important cultural element. Especially when local perception and practices of the religion are quite similar as in the case of Turkey and Bosnia.

[W01f]

Neutral. I don't really know enough about current day Turkey to take a stance for or against it, and I have mixed feelings about its history.

[Beirut]

Can anyone guess how I voted here

Other: " The Satanic Republic of Turkiye should be burned to ashes"

"Anyways, i find Doomhammer,Vanasalus and Beirut desirably alluring."

Doomy, a Turk would be expected to think positively of Turkey.

lol

[Plaro]

Men are equal but different as well.

Yes, just look down.

The truth is even the knowledge that those hips and breasts exist somewhere inside a burka,sari,kimono etc.. make some men not able to concentrate in certain societies.It is not about women covering it more,it is about how decent men are

I'm sure they are men like that, but I think they are a minority. As to the comment that was at me, you are not very understanding of human nature are you, or men.

I think I came of to be misunderstood, I should elaborate on my ideas more. I do not suggest that to be modest one has to wear a headscarf or dress up like a ninja, as Doomshammer put it. Yet at the same time I do not find the mainstream modern style modest, but perverse and disgusting and I can see how it will scare many religious and conservative people. It should scare any humane person, in my opinion.

When I look at a woman who is explosive in her dressing, it is not my fault. These are instincts, if you saw whole bunch of young Turkish men walking without their shirts, you will look, it something that stands out and something you have been wired by nature to appreciate. Same with me if there are hips or breast I look most of the time unconsciously and then feel guilty about it, why? We humans have also been wire by nature to be monogamous (although some people think otherwise) and thus the two instinct must be in balance with one another, otherwise each one of these unconscious looks leads to guilt and negative feeling of betrayal. The modern clothing of the west does not provide the necessary balance. Instead you are always bombarded with this sex aroma everywhere you turn, school, café, theatre, music and workplace.

What is worst is to think what kind of mentality accompanies that fashion style, what goes in the head of a woman that chooses to dress like that(explosive)? Well you quickly begin to realize that she has no choice in it, the media have decided for her long time ago. She is fed into her head that men judge her by her body, and choose her as a mate thus, like a harlot, but love is not formed by physical attraction alone.

Anyways I wish I could write more but I have to go, but here is some extras.

Times of Ataturk



Modernity



I wonder what Ataturk would say now.

[Potemkin]

I wonder what Ataturk would say now.

He would probably say something like "Boo-yah!". But in Turkish.

[Plaro]

He would probably say something like "Boo-yah!". But in Turkish.

and then have a heart attack. The point is, the European "way" (that of the women as well) which Ataturk was introducing into Turkey, was different at his time. If he would have saw what is happening in the West now, I do not think he would have been so inclined to introduce or except the influence of this modernity for his people.

[Thunderhawk]

Modernity does not have to be decadent.

[El Gilroy]

Negative, sorry. Just another country...

[Aekos]

Modernity does not have to be decadent.

It doesn't have to be, but it often is. Also, no one wants to see Turkish girls like that...if any country in that region needs modesty, it's Turkey

Negative, sorry. Just another country...

What a joke

[Parvus]

I couldn't read the whole topic, sorry for that, so I will write in general.

First of all, as a person born and living in Turkey, I don't believe that the current government is "Islamist". They are more like Christian democrats: perfect spokesmen of the capitalists who can do what they tell them without pissing the masses off. They use very little religious sauce, like the Christian democrats (are they really Christian?) They should be categorized as conservatives. Merkel, Berlusconi, Sarkozy... Slightly more "democratic" than the Tories in UK or the Repulicans in US.

They attract the masses because they don't have a Kemalist past. They can stand against the army's intervention into politics, which is cool for me. They claim they want to solve the Kurdish question, the Cyprus issue, the Armenian problem and so on. Which are also cool. In a Kemalist government we wouldn't be able to see these improvements I guess.

Somebody said that it would be good if the army toppled them. I am sorry but that sounds very rude. Speaking from outside Turkey and telling such things is easy, but ask the Turkish people how they feel about coups. It is not a solution, it destroys lives, it destroys the limited democracy we have and it corrupts the society. It also hurts the labour movement greatly. I am not talking about only the coup in 1980 (which was more like a Pinochet style coup so everbody is against it) but on all coups.

Let's consider the last one: It was called a "post-modern coup" against an Islamist party. It was a huge operation. The army manipulated the media greatly, created false Islamist "sheikhs" and we watched how some Islamists "sheikh" had sex parties and stuff. All of them was made up.
Before the coup, something like the Gladio in Italy was about to be disclosed. We were watching how MPs, police chiefs and mafia were acting together and we were getting clues about how far this Gladio organization was going. Then the coup came and we began watching the bullcrap about how Islamists had sex parties!
When the government was toppled, the first thing the new government did was to attack the Kurds. Also the media gave false information about some politicians and journalists. As a result, Akin Birdal, a Turkish politician in favor of Kurds were shot by 13 bullets (luckily he survived)
And what about the generals who were responsible for the coup? They became shareholders of some banks. And a few years later, those banks bankrupted and had to be bailed out. The "secular" generals had eaten all the money in the banks.

Also, before the coup, the worker movement was growing. After the coup, the workers were divided as "Muslims" and "secularists" and we still didn't see a worker's movement as big as the one before the coup.

I am not an Islamist, I want democracy and not an Islamic regime. But the antidote of Islamists is not the Kemalist army, it's the movement of the masses. If somebody will topple our government, it will be us, the people. Not the army.

[eloweeth]

I don't believe that the current government is "Islamist

How do you feel so sure about that.Just because they continue EU process?They have good strategies in foreign policy yet a moron party leader who calls for at least 3 kids for each family!Is this the little religious souce?What next?

In a Kemalist government we wouldn't be able to see these improvements I guess.

When was the last time CHP(with another moron party leader) ruled this country that you speak so sure of Kemalists?They are opposing everything now but that's where they stand as well."The Opposition"
And although we had certain democratization processes that were good we also heard Erdogan calling for masses not to buy those newspapers when he didn't like what he read!How tolerant!

But the antidote of Islamists is not the Kemalist army, it's the movement of the masses.

Agreed.

[Parvus]

How do you feel so sure about that.Just because they continue EU process?They have good strategies in foreign policy yet a moron party leader who calls for at least 3 kids for each family!Is this the little religious souce?What next?

I don't think that is a sign of being Islamist. (It is a typical speech from a conservative politician from a third world country who wants to have a big population so that the capitalists can find even cheaper labor and have "economic growth".)
And I don't see any Islamist signs at all. The people who want an Islamic state is at most 2%. That's what the polls say. Also you can watch it from election results.
If you think AKP is Islamist I fear you haven't spoken to a real Islamist in your life. Trust me, they hate AKP and especially Fethullah Gulen even more than you do. They say Gulen is destroying the "revolutionary spirit" of Islam by integrating it into global capitalism. Watch how the ex-Islamist bosses change when they become big capitalists. They can't risk their businesses by turning Turkey into an Islamist state.

When was the last time CHP(with another moron party leader) ruled this country that you speak so sure of Kemalists?They are opposing everything now but that's where they stand as well."The Opposition"

CHP wasn't the ruling party, but Kemalism intervenes through bureucracy. We know that. And the "red lines" of Turkey was drawn by them. Denying the Armenian genocide, invading Cyprus, assimilating Kurdish people... These weren't done by Erdogan or AKP.

And although we had certain democratization processes that were good we also heard Erdogan calling for masses not to buy those newspapers when he didn't like what he read!How tolerant!

Of course. I didn't claim that he is a democrat. I say he is a conservative. And we should fight against it, fight for democracy. We must criticize these stupid actions but we can and should also support the "good" stuff. And of course, we mustn't stop there, we must want more.

Agreed.

Really good to be agreeing on that

[eloweeth]

I don't think that is a sign of being Islamist

Well,we know his poems of his which were islamist once upon a time.You are right that they are closer to be conservatives now than being islamists,but still...

they hate AKP and especially Fethullah Gulen even more than you do

I don't hate neither of them,but I don't want to be ruled by a cleric even if he is a moderate one.

They can't risk their businesses by turning Turkey into an Islamist state.

I don't think they have a theocratic agenda either.What they can do and have the power to do is to turn Turkey into "Muslim elite"state where more and more people turn Islam as it is more beneficial for their pocket.And although I didn't like the previous deep state etc.. I don't think AKP will be too different in terms of use of power when they have it.At least I suspect so.

[Parvus]

Well,we know his poems of his which were islamist once upon a time.You are right that they are closer to be conservatives now than being islamists,but still...

I can't blame anybody for having doubts or second thoughts about AKP, it's natural. I just think that we must have clear signs in order to make up our minds.

I don't hate neither of them,but I don't want to be ruled by a cleric even if he is a moderate one.

Agreed.

I don't think they have a theocratic agenda either.What they can do and have the power to do is to turn Turkey into "Muslim elite"state where more and more people turn Islam as it is more beneficial for their pocket.And although I didn't like the previous deep state etc.. I don't think AKP will be too different in terms of use of power when they have it.At least I suspect so.

After all their talk about democracy, at least they will have to be much more cautious than before. The previous "state behind" was far too obvious in their evil ways
And as for the use of power, well, AKP is a spokesman for the ruling class. And the ruling class can use any power when they think it's necessary. But I think they will be OK with a "normal" parliementary democracy for now.