[noemon]

So what is the point of democracy then? If society is just filled with whole bunch of bacist rigots and we need an "enlightened" crew to lead us all, just have a fucking dictatorship and put a pretty EU star flag on it. You sound like a modern politicians who just does not get why people do not like the wonders of multiculturalism and the "new" wonderful "prosperous" society. "It just does not make sense, why not? They must be racist. That is the only plausible conclusion". omg when is this going to end........

So now you 've chosen nihilism, democracy is so that we can discuss all this and the better opinion to win over the minds of the less better one.

You claimed that Hungary and Poland are in open revolt over immigration(when in fact no immigrant has actually migrated there or even attempted to), do you have any valid reason to explain this phenomenon other than the racist populism of their leaders because I can not see any other reason but I'm willing to listen because that is what democracy is for.

[Albert]

Oh Jesus, your mentality is that of directorial one not democratic. Fact that you see politicians need to "convince" or "sell" something to the public, to the "lesser" being of society you already show that you have no confidence in people to make right decisions. Hence that is undemocratic, as that goes against the principle of fulfilling the will of the people and ruling for the people. That is even bad dictatorial practice to be frank.

As for eastern Europe, aside that you insulted eastern Europe as a place that no one really wants to go to and a bad place to live. Perhaps consider that eastern Europeans see what has happened in the western Europe and what is happening now. And they do not want to run the risk of the same happening to them. Where cities like Warsaw or Budapest will turn into wonderful "multicultural paradises" like London.

And dont feed me another smart word like nihilism that you know nothing about, you are the definition of that. What loyalty you have towards? Only to yourself and what you want? Not even what is practical and good for the whole of a country or nation.

[Harmattan]

The founders of the EU who were also democratically-elected were not far-right populists but people who compromised and implemented rationalism to bring about change in the extremely racist European mindsets. Their vision is under threat, not by immigrants but by their descendants.

The hell with the "founders of the EU"! Stop swallowing this stupid euromythology that has been artificially made up based on the American mythology! Those you think of when you say founders or founding fathers are just a bunch of figures arbitrarily chosen to forge a propaganda. Oh, surprise, there is one guy for every country, how convenient.

No one founded the EU. Some guys founded a market, it didn't work so they hacked it, it still didn't work so they hacked it further, etc. Decades of incompetence later we have this ticking bomb and the promise of catastrophes. Sure, all along there has been some traitors who wanted to destroy our nations and envisioned a new reich instead. But they were not always significant and you do not necessarily know the name of those who were, while those you name founders were not always such euronationalists. For example De Gaulle is sometimes mentioned as a founder of Europe while he loathed people with such an agenda.


Regarding the populist leaders in Europe, populism simply means demagoguery nowadays, which is not wrong. Expect more and more of those leaders everywhere in Europe. Thanks to the EU, European people will turn to brown parties because the others are already know to have failed. No need to cry already, as we will see far worse governments in Europe in the decades to come. In comparison you will consider Le Pen as a center-right leader.

[noemon]

Oh Jesus, your mentality is that of directorial one not democratic. Fact that you see politicians need to "convince" or "sell" something to the public, to the "lesser" being of society you already show that you have no confidence in people to make right decisions. Hence that is undemocratic, as that goes against the principle of fulfilling the will of the people and ruling for the people. That is even bad dictatorial practice to be frank.

As for eastern Europe, aside that you insulted eastern Europe as a place that no one really wants to go to and a bad place to live. Perhaps consider that eastern Europeans see what has happened in the western Europe and what is happening now. And they do not want to run the risk of the same happening to them. Where cities like Warsaw or Budapest will turn into wonderful "multicultural paradises" like London.

No, I'm just asking you to validate your claim that Eastern Europe is in "open revolt due to immigration", when no immigration has taken place in these countries, but rather emigration out of these countries is happening. Clearly you cannot validate your claim and you now resort to ad-homs and argument that make absolutely no-sense which is not contingent to rationalism.

If Eastern Europeans see the evils of London and the other cosmopolitan european cities then how come they are flocking there in numbers greater than the immigrants themselves. This makes no-sense.

If reality is insulting maybe you should work to change that reality instead of trying to find scapegoats. The fact is that nobody wants to migrate to eastern Europe, do you dispute this fact?

Stop swallowing this stupid euromythology that has been artificially made up based on the American mythology! Those you think of when you say founders or founding fathers are just a bunch of figures arbitrarily chosen to forge a propaganda. Oh, surprise, there is one guy for every country, how convenient.

Are you claiming that De Gaulle was just another Orban? Because if you do that is shame on you, not on me.

It its blatantly obvious to me that European peoples are the worlds greatest chauvinists and supremacists, the EU facade is keeping them in check, take that away and you got WW on the nth all over again. This is not debatable anymore.

And dont feed me another smart word like nihilism that you know nothing about, you are the definition of that. What loyalty you have towards? Only to yourself and what you want? Not even what is practical and good for the whole of a country or nation.

Don't lose your calm, you lend yourself to ridicule. Ask anybody, I am the most nationalistic person in this forum, true nationalism, not racism, true devotion to my cultural values, upbringing and traditions. If people want to join my team, I welcome them because that is how I have been raised.

[Albert]

First of all, I never stated that the said countries were solely in revolt against immigration. I said they were in revolt against EU's ideological principles and political structure. One of those principles in many is migration. And yes, even though they are not experiencing high levels of immigration but rather emigration more so, they are against principles of multiculturalism. Go speak with Polish people and their government I do not know exact reason for it. I just told you, I think it is probably because they do not want their country to run the risk of turning into multicultural paradise.

And before you tell people to fix their own place up and how it is their fault, be prepared to be judged the same way. Where are you from neomon, I'm curious?

Don't lose your calm, you lend yourself to ridicule. Ask anybody, I am the most nationalistic person in this forum, true nationalism, not racism, true devotion to my cultural values, upbringing and traditions. If people want to join my team, I welcome them because that is how I have been raised.

I never lost my cool, I'm cool all the time. And as far as I can tell, you do not read like a nationalist to me at all.

[noemon]

I am Greek and that is what I believe for Greeks as well hence my devotion to this argument.

The EU ideological & political structures are what enabled these Eastern European people to commit to welfare shopping around the continent, they love that sort of thing. And yesterday I was out and about with Polish people who confirmed everything I am telling you right now.

And as far as I can tell, you do not read like a nationalist to me at all.

That is because 'nationalism' which was created during the Napoleonic tidal wave of liberalism has been reduced to shit by nihilists.

[Albert]

Well hence they are coming to other EU countries, for their own personal gain. But they do not want to be taken advantage themselves. It is human nature. But alas nothing is free in the world at the end of it all, those people will get what they deserve.

So you are Greek and judge Polish so harshly about prosperity .......

That is because 'nationalism' which was created during the Napoleonic tidal wave of liberalism has been reduced to shit by nihilists.

Well you are a civic nationalist or the liberal side nationalism at best then.

[noemon]

As harsh as I judge my own, certainly. I don't see why should I apply a different standard to the Polish far right populists?

Nationalism and liberalism are one and the same supplementing each other, liberalism cannot exist without nationalism and vice-versa...Liberté, égalité, fraternité.

[Harmattan]

Are you claiming that De Gaulle was just another Orban? Because if you do that is shame on you, not on me.

De Gaulle loathed those with an euro-nationalist agenda, he saw them as traitors. Those turning him into an euronationalist are historical revisionists.

It its blatantly obvious to me that European peoples are the worlds greatest chauvinists and supremacists, the EU facade is keeping them in check, take that away and you got WW on the nth all over again. This is not debatable anymore.

How can you seriously write such a thing?! You are so indoctrinated, this is incredible.

Travel outside of Europe and you will see that we are among the most tolerant people on this planet. Racism and supremacism are a lot stronger elsewhere, we were just more powerful. And the EU is the very definition of an imperialist project oppressing people and destroying democracy and cultures.

Europeans will not vote for brown parties because they are intolerant but because you do not leave them a choice. Voting for mainstream parties will be for them a sure death, at least brown parties will only be a probable death. This is always how brown parties reach power: because electors already have their backs against the wall.

Nationalism and liberalism are one and the same supplementing each other, liberalism cannot exist without nationalism and vice-versa...Liberté, égalité, fraternité.

How can you understand this and not understand that the EU, which destroys the national sovereignties, destroys democracies. There is no European democracy and they are rendering national democracies useless.

[noemon]

De Gaulle loathed those with an euro-nationalist agenda, he saw them as traitors. Those turning him into an euronationalist are historical revisionists.

This is vague enough to be registered as non-sense. Was De Gaulle a far-right populist akin to Orban? It's a simple question. That is the actual question, not some vague and abstract euro-nationalism.

How can you seriously write such a thing?! You are so indoctrinated, this is incredible.

Travel outside of Europe and you will see that we are among the most tolerant people on this planet. Racism and supremacism are a lot stronger elsewhere, we were just more powerful. And the EU is the very definition of an imperialist project oppressing people and destroying democracy and cultures.

I have travelled a lot and maybe you should too. There is a difference between us and other people's:

a) They are not hypocrites or crypto-racists. They are open and honest about it.
b) They do not have the power to destroy the world like we do.
c) It should be of no concern to you what other people are or how you compare to them, what should concern you is your own.

How can you understand this and not understand that the EU, which destroys the national sovereignties, destroys democracies. There is no European democracy and they are rendering national democracies useless.

The EU structure is an issue that I have raised time and time again as you well know, right now our subject is immigration, we cannot confuse the 2 subjects just to throw mud because that is irrational.

[Albert]

As harsh as I judge my own, certainly. I don't see why should I apply a different standard to the Polish far right populists?

Fair enough

Nationalism and liberalism are one and the same supplementing each other, liberalism cannot exist without nationalism and vice-versa...Liberté, égalité, fraternité.

Look I'm beginning to understand where you are coming form. Civic nationalism is just one part, and it has it merit obviously. Yet if you are exposed to nationalist thinking you also have to understand there is nationalist who take "blood relation" seriously. This has always existed in humanity and will continue to exist. It seems with this nationalism you have a problem, but it is not nihilism or populism it is a real element in this world that exist, and you have to recognize it at least as legitimate. Otherwise it will always give you trouble. As you will also find out that those type of nationalist are not all black and white in their perspective, they have reason too. If not they are unfit to govern or rule then. So again, they are not unreasonable or unjust like you imagine them.

And no liberalism and nationalism are not the same. Nationalism is an idea that seeks to convey peoples culture, identity and heritage. It seeks to express something real. Liberalism also expresses something real yet different, it is a system of governance that deals with people's nationalism in particular way, among many other things.

[noemon]

It seems with this nationalism you have a problem, but it is not nihilism or populism it is a real element in this world that exist, and you have to recognize it at least as legitimate. Otherwise it will always give you trouble. As you will also find out that those type of nationalist are not all black and white in their perspective, they have reason too. If not they are unfit to govern or rule then. So again, they are not unreasonable or unjust like you imagine them.

I am a Maniot, eugenics, blood, family, phyle are an integral and definitive part of our cultural tradition, but true eugenics have absolutely nothing to do with social constructs like Islam & national identities. Eugenics do not differentiate among nations, good genes can come from anywhere and become assimilated onto the national corpus and that is how I came to be married to an Anglo-Persian goddess.

Orban's populism as a lot of other things is legitimate, but legitimacy has nothing to do with whether it is a good thing or not. Orban's populism does not help his nation in anyway, just like Tsipras' populism does not help Greece in any way that I can think of, it causes the nation to sleepwalk into oblivion.

[Albert]

I'm not a eugenicist but I do take blood relation seriously. And consider that blood passes to us a lot. By "blood" I mean not just biological, your parents and community you grow up is also included into this concept of "blood". I think it is obviously okay that mix couples will happen, but when it happens to a point where people think that is the norm, I get worried.

I do not know exactly what is happening in Hungary or Poland at the moment aside from few news reels and articles I have read. But the sense I'm getting, is that people do not want to go on the same path that western Europe went. They are interested in common market and EU project, but they do not want to loose their tradition and identity. They do not like the whole progressive project side of EU, the one I label "ideological and political" side of it.

Similarly what I see in Greece people seem to appear to want to resolve this EU crisis once and for all. And I think voting for Tsipras, they hoped either the crisis will be resolved or they will leave the EU. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Harmattan]

This is vague enough to be registered as non-sense.

« Encore une fois, il est tout naturel que les Etats de l'Europe aient à leur disposition des organismes spécialisés pour les problèmes qui leur sont communs, pour préparer et au besoin pour suivre leurs décisions, mais ces décisions leur appartiennent. Elles ne peuvent appartenir qu'à eux et ils ne peuvent les prendre que par coopération. Assurer la coopération régulière de l'Europe occidentale, c'est ce que la France considère comme étant souhaitable »

"Once again it is natural that European states have specialized organs to deal with their common problems, to prepare and follow their decisions, but those decisions are theirs. They can only belong to them and they can only adopt them through cooperation. A periodical cooperation of western Europe is what France sees as desirable."

He wanted a periodical cooperation of five sovereign nations, not new USA.

Was De Gaulle a far-right populist akin to Orban? It's a simple question. That is the actual question, not some vague and abstract euro-nationalism.

It is ridiculous to consider that someone who refuses to destroy his nation in favor of an European nation is a far-right dictator scarecrow.

De Gaulle was French and as a French president he obeyed his duty: to defend French interests, something that his successors sometimes betrayed in favor of euronationalism.

[noemon]

None of that changes or means anything, in fact most of that validate my argument that De Gaulle has absolutely nothing to do with Orban, who is just an idiot populist who has created an issue to milk when his country faces no such issue in actual fact.

You should not compare the giant De Gaulle with the Orban midget. You are doing a disservice to your own and their legacy.

[Harmattan]

None of that changes or means anything, in fact most of that validate my argument that De Gaulle has absolutely nothing to do with Orban

You are the one comparing them from what I understood. And I did not take the defense of Orban nor compared him to De Gaulle.

I denounced the myth of the European founders, I denounced the revisionism that makes an euronationalist out of De Gaulle, I denounced the depiction of anti-unionism as a scarecrow.

It seems like we have a misunderstanding.

[noemon]

Of course we do, since you jumped in here to defend Orban from the obvious ridicule he deserves. I drew a fine line in the sand between Orban's populism and the founders of the EU, you are the one who wants to undo the line in the sand just so you defend this pathetic populism of Orban.

[Dr Cosmo]

And the EU is the very definition of an imperialist project oppressing people and destroying democracy and cultures.

…..says someone (Harmattan) whose countrymen (the French) supported, advanced and pushed forward all steps of EU integration during the last 60 years…..

I denounced the myth of the European founders,

A myth can´t be denounced. Its a defacto reality. Either because its true or because its repeated /believed.

[Harmattan]

Of course we do, since you jumped in here to defend Orban from the obvious ridicule he deserves.

I never did such a thing and I am irritated by the numerous things you pretend I said and the incessant accusations from someone who do not even make the effort to read me properly.

For the start I would not have commented this country's situation because I am not familiar with it and Orban. If anything I excused the electors who drive the rise of the far-right everywhere in Europe and warned that Europe altogether would move to this end of the spectrum with worse and worse movements.

[noemon]

It would move to that spectrum if the movement has the support of people who fashion themselves as centrists like yourself.

I drew a fine line in the sand between Orban's populism and the founders of the EU, you are the one who wants to undo the line in the sand just so you defend this pathetic populism of Orban.

If that is not so, then maybe you should not have done it in the first place. It is not my fault that your undoing the line in the sand was unsuccessful.