[Jake]

Even if the Turks did force a couple million Armenians into the desert and starve them to death, so what? Turkey is Israel's right hand man. Why embarrass Turkey? Besides, if we're going to talk about other alleged acts of genocide against non-Jews, that opens a pandora's box.

If we allow that to happen, next thing you know children will have to learn about the so-called Ukranian holocaust. Screw that! Ukranians say that Stalin deliberately starved 7 million Ukranians to death. Now, that sort of thing is an embarrassment to Stalin, right? We cannot demonize Stalin, because that only makes Hitler look good, or, at the very least, not the worst villain of WWII...which is the same thing as far as I'm concerned. Plus, 7 million dead Ukranians trumps our 6 million dead Jews. Ukranians are essentially nazis who do not deserve to infringe upon our sacred Shoah.

The only holocaust that ever happened or really matters is the Jewish Holocaust. Get that through your heads.

[Vanasalus]

Even if the Turks did force a couple million Armenians into the desert and starve them to death, so what? Turkey is Israel's right hand man. Why embarrass Turkey? Besides, if we're going to talk about other alleged acts of genocide against non-Jews, that opens a pandora's box.

If we allow that to happen, next thing you know children will have to learn about the so-called Ukranian holocaust. Screw that! Ukranians say that Stalin deliberately starved 7 million Ukranians to death. Now, that sort of thing is an embarrassment to Stalin, right? We cannot demonize Stalin, because that only makes Hitler look good, or, at the very least, not the worst villain of WWII...which is the same thing as far as I'm concerned. Plus, 7 million dead Ukranians trumps our 6 million dead Jews. Ukranians are essentially nazis who do not deserve to infringe upon our sacred Shoah.

The only holocaust that ever happened or really matters is the Jewish Holocaust. Get that through your heads.

I feel some travesty in your post, but anyway. I think, as a Turk, I have things to say against that crap.

First of all, I am a full fledged enemy of Armenian propaganda, which is ceaselessly trying to distort historical facts into fantasies. However, I never deny the fact that Armenians experienced a great catastrophe. I never say I am happy that hundreds of thousand Armenians lost their lives.
My Armenian debates are only about the naming of those unfortunate incidents as genocide or something else.

Well, my firm belief is that Historians should debate and decide about historical events after independent studies.

If some parliaments around the globe is passing legislations, recognizing Armenian drama as a genocide, we will take those resolutions and wipe our ass with them. Parliaments make the history, but they do not write or rewrite the history. It is historians' job.

If an overwhelming majority of historians, after independent studies, say that Armenian drama in 1915 was a genocide, then there remains almost no question about the validity of Armenian genocide.

Genocide is not a crime that exist only when Jews are the victims. If it was, this would be a sick definition. Genocide is the most serous crime against humanity, which was conceptually defined in 1948. Any incidence falling within the criteria of this 1948 definition is a genocide regardless of the racial identity of the victims.

[Monkeydust]

Even if the Turks did force a couple million Armenians into the desert and starve them to death, so what? Turkey is Israel's right hand man. Why embarrass Turkey? Besides, if we're going to talk about other alleged acts of genocide against non-Jews, that opens a pandora's box.

If we allow that to happen, next thing you know children will have to learn about the so-called Ukranian holocaust. Screw that! Ukranians say that Stalin deliberately starved 7 million Ukranians to death. Now, that sort of thing is an embarrassment to Stalin, right? We cannot demonize Stalin, because that only makes Hitler look good, or, at the very least, not the worst villain of WWII...which is the same thing as far as I'm concerned. Plus, 7 million dead Ukranians trumps our 6 million dead Jews. Ukranians are essentially nazis who do not deserve to infringe upon our sacred Shoah.

The only holocaust that ever happened or really matters is the Jewish Holocaust. Get that through your heads.

No one's talking about the Armenian Genocide with the intention of "embarrasing Turkey". People are talking about it largely because Turkey has denied that it even happened, even though bones have been dug up and the evidence exists.

Children don't have to learn about every "holocaust", and there's no reason to value one over another, but we need to at least acknowledge that they all happened, if indeed they did.

[Vanasalus]

No one's talking about the Armenian Genocide with the intention of "embarrasing Turkey". People are talking about it largely because Turkey has denied that it even happened, even though bones have been dug up and the evidence exists.

Please do not mislead the readers. Turkey is denying to name Armenian catastrophe in 1915 as a "genocide". She is not denying the catastrophe. It is true many Armenians perished. Though, not ~1.5 million were perished as Armenian claimed, but most probably less than half a million. But of course, regardless of whether 15 million or 1.5 million or 150 thousand victims, catastrophe is catastrophe. I am not trying to dilute the severity of the events. But, it does not change the fact that There is no proof that the central government organized mass killings of Armenian minority. However, the government ordered the relocation of Armenians from eastern frontier where Russian-Ottoman war was being fought to southern provinces. And, most of the victims fell during the relocation due to the widespread epidemic diseases at those times.

[QatzelOk]

Jake, good call on Armenian holocaust-envy.

You are a very observant, and level-headed polemicist.

[Stasi]

According to the "Great Soviet Encyclopedia", the Ottoman Turks murdered 1.5 million Armenians between 1915 and the end of the Ottoman Empire.

The Turks have had a history full of habitual massacres of Armenians; only circa 1895 were 200,000 Armenians murdered.

Recognition of the Armenian Genocide as such in 1991 was blocked in the U.S Congress due to intense lobbying by the monstrous coalition consisting of Turkey and Israel. According to the Zionist propaganda campaign that exploits the Holocaust for political gain, non-Jews especially gentiles are not human beings.

The Turks are despised by virtually everyone except for the Jews/Americans and their friendly German allies of the past. Peoples of Bulgaria, Greece, Albania, and Yugoslavia all despise the Turks for the insurmountable oppression that they've had to endure. The Arab world despise the Turks as well; the Turks will never forgive the post-WWI Arab revolts.

Ukranians are essentially nazis who do not deserve to infringe upon our sacred Shoah.

Someone card this fucker.

[Vanasalus]

Ottoman Turks murdered 1.5 million Armenians

Evidence?

only circa 1895 were 200,000 Armenians murdered.

Evidence?

The Turks are despised by virtually everyone except for the Jews/Americans and their friendly German allies of the past.

Evidence?

Peoples of Bulgaria, Greece, Albania, and Yugoslavia all despise the Turks for the insurmountable oppression that they've had to endure.

Oppression in what scale? At which time? Compared to what contemporary imperial power at that time?

[Stasi]

Your incessant soliciation of "evidence" is a practice of spiteful ignorance and a refusal to accept truths that conflict with your own.

Evidence?

German Foreign Ministry operate E. Jackh for the Sassoun, Hamidian massacres.

Evidence?

The demographics of the Ottoman Empire.

Evidence?

The Greek independence war circa 1830, the Balkan War, the post-World War I Arab revolts.

Oppression in what scale? At which time? Compared to what contemporary imperial power at that time?

Compared to every. The Tsarist mistreatment of Armenians, which mostly amounted to a restriction of their language, is nowhere close to the extent applied by the Turks which was expressed in the form of genocidal massacres.

[Vanasalus]

Your incessant soliciation of "evidence" is a practice of spiteful ignorance and a refusal to accept truths that conflict with your own.

Sorry for that. I, as a student in the path of becoming natural scientist, has a profound respect for evidence compared to beliefs and gossips. I hope you do not expect of me to accept Jesus Christ as the son of God, since more than 1 billion people believe so.

The demographics of the Ottoman Empire.

Very well, be my guest! Then, may be you are kind enough to explain how come 1.5 million Armenian lost their lives in 1915 while total Armenian population of Ottoman Empire in 1914 was 1,221,850.

If the question is too difficult, let me paraphrase. Today, there are ~8,000,000 Armenians around the globe. ~5.5 million of them are living in Armenian and Russia. Firstly, 2.5 million Armenians whore are living somewhere else, are exclusively the descendants of Ottoman Armenians. And important proportion of 5.5 million Armenians living in Armenia and Russia are also descendants of the Ottoman Armenians. Roughly, lets say 3.5-4.5 million Armenians of Today are the descendants of Ottoman Armenians.

Now the paraphrased version of the same question: How come there are 3.5-4.5 million Armenians can be the descendants of -278150(minus two hundred seventy eight thousand one hundred fifty) survivors of 1915.

Quote:

Oppression in what scale? At which time? Compared to what contemporary imperial power at that time?

Compared to every. The Tsarist mistreatment of Armenians, which mostly amounted to a restriction of their language, is nowhere close to the extent applied by the Turks which was expressed in the form of genocidal massacres.

On the contrary... Ottomans were traditionally tolerant against minorities. During 624 years of the of the Empire, no nation was forced to speak Turkish. No nation was forced to convert Islam. No nation got any mistreatment, degenerating their national identity. There are more than 30 sovereign nations with differing religions, customs, languages and nationalities in today's world, who at once were subjects of Ottoman Empire. How come did they survive our brutality?

On the other hand, it took less than a century for Spanish to wipe out Maya, Inca, Aztec completely. Europeans immediately started enslave and sale Africans in slave markets. Where are the Crimean Tatars who were ruling most of todays Ukraine for almost a millennia? Or, may be you can explain me how come 40 million Americans are being Irish descendants while ~5 million in Ireland, who can only speak English.

I do not claim Ottomans were perfect in fair administration. But compared to contemporary powers of that time, there is no doubt that they were like angels from the heaven.

[Stasi]

The Turk-Jew partnership has yet again reared its ugly head in this thread.

On the other hand, it took less than a century for Spanish to wipe out Maya, Inca, Aztec completely.

What the fuck are you talking about? 30% of Mexico's population today consists of aboriginals ; 40% of Peru's population consists of aboriginals. The Spanish wiped out the aboriginals of the Carribean, but Central and South America today still contain a high concentration of aboriginals.

Then, may be you are kind enough to explain how come 1.5 million Armenian lost their lives in 1915 while total Armenian population of Ottoman Empire in 1914 was 1,221,850.

The total of the population of Armenians there numbered at 1.7 million according to Justin McCarthy.

Now the paraphrased version of the same question: How come there are 3.5-4.5 million Armenians can be the descendants of -278150

Generations of natural growth. It would be like asking, "How come there are 13 million Jews today compared to 11 million in 1900?"

On the contrary... Ottomans were traditionally tolerant against minorities.

My fucking goodness, that is laughable. Why do you think today's Albanians and Bosnians are of the Islamic cult? They were coerced into it.

In the last 100 years of the Ottoman Empire.

1822-MASSACRD-50,000 Greeks at Chios
1850-MASSACRED-12,000 Armenians and Nestorians in Kurdistan
1860-MASSACRED-11,000 Maronites and Syrians in Lebanon
1876-MASSACRED-15,000 Bulgarians at Batak and elsewhere
1877-MASSACRED-6,000 Armenians at Alachkert
1892-MASSACRED-8,000 Yesidis near Mossul
1894-MASSACRED-12,000 Armenians at Sassoun and Mouch
1895-96-MASSACRD-300,000 Armenians in many villages
1909-MASSACRED-30,000 Armenians at Adana Celicia and elsewhere
1915-18-MSSACRED-1,500,000 Armenians in the Ottoman Empire
1920-MASSACRED-30,000 Armenians near Kars and Alexandropol
1921-MASSACRED-Massacred-50,000 Armenians in Cilicia
1922-MASSACRED-150,000 Greeks and Armenians at Izmir
1894-1924-MASSACRED-424,000 Assyrians in Kurdistan

Where are the Crimean Tatars who were ruling most of todays Ukraine for almost a millennia?

The Tatars and other Turkics and Mongoloids were responsible for turning Russia into madness. If anything, the Tatars and Turks ought to be deported to Central Asia -- where they originally came from.

...Where are the Greeks who ruled what is now Turkey for several millenia?

[Vanasalus]

The Turk-Jew partnership has yet again reared its ugly head in this thread.

Though I have neither phrased the word "Jews" nor indirectly mentioned about Jews, you need to repeat "Turk-Jew partnership" like a parrot. I always thought anti-semitism is the most straightforward Litmus paper for identifying fascists. And, if you think repeating the word "Jews" a parrot in a negative manner will make your argument look stronger in this domain, you are moving exactly to the opposite direction to what you think you are heading toward. Just a friendly advice...

What the fuck are you talking about? 30% of Mexico's population today consists of aboriginals ; 40% of Peru's population consists of aboriginals. The Spanish wiped out the aboriginals of the Carribean, but Central and South America today still contain a high concentration of aboriginals.

Good. Then, maybe you are kind enough to explain where their culture, language, religion and civilization are?

The total of the population of Armenians there numbered at 1.7 million according to Justin McCarthy.

Well, my number (1,221,850) is the result of 1914 official population census, which is pretty much in agreement with 1,120,748 of 1906 census, which is pretty much in agreement with 1,001,465 of 1896 census.

But, let me play along. If McCarthy's number was true, there would be 200,000 thousand survivors in 1915-1918. Then, please explain how the population of Armenians increased 20 fold within 90 years

My fucking goodness, that is laughable. Why do you think today's Albanians and Bosnians are of the Islamic cult? They were coerced into it.

Well, then tell us how they were converted. Were they forced? Were they thrown into fire if they rejected? How?

Then tell us how come only 70% of Albanians and 40% of Bosnians were converted, while Hungarians, Serbians, Bulgarians, Macedonians, Ukrainians etc, etc stayed solid Christians for hundreds of years and remained Christian until your lovely Communism swept everything in a single generation.

1822-MASSACRD-50,000 Greeks at Chios
1850-MASSACRED-12,000 Armenians and Nestorians in Kurdistan
1860-MASSACRED-11,000 Maronites and Syrians in Lebanon
1876-MASSACRED-15,000 Bulgarians at Batak and elsewhere
1877-MASSACRED-6,000 Armenians at Alachkert
1892-MASSACRED-8,000 Yesidis near Mossul
1894-MASSACRED-12,000 Armenians at Sassoun and Mouch
1895-96-MASSACRD-300,000 Armenians in many villages
1909-MASSACRED-30,000 Armenians at Adana Celicia and elsewhere
1915-18-MSSACRED-1,500,000 Armenians in the Ottoman Empire
1920-MASSACRED-30,000 Armenians near Kars and Alexandropol
1921-MASSACRED-Massacred-50,000 Armenians in Cilicia
1922-MASSACRED-150,000 Greeks and Armenians at Izmir
1894-1924-MASSACRED-424,000 Assyrians in Kurdistan

Perfectly round numbers to thousands. I will not even bother to ask the source.

The Tatars and other Turkics and Mongoloids were responsible for turning Russia into madness.

With all due respect, historically, I do not recall any time Russia has not been turned into madness. If they do not have foreign excuse, they create a reason domestically.

If anything, the Tatars and Turks ought to be deported to Central Asia -- where they originally came from.

Well, demand the same thing from me when Russians go back to Siberia, English to Norway and Denmark and white Americans to Europe. I will give you an answer at that time. Until that time, you can lick my shoes.

...Where are the Greeks who ruled what is now Turkey for several millenia?

For your information, there were more than 2 million Greeks in Anatolia when Turkish Republic was founded in 1923. Most of those Greeks were subjected to population exchange with Turks living in Greece.

You can ask why they were subjected to population exchange. Well, you should ask the question to the Greek government presided by Mr. Venizelous of that time. Because it was Greece that demanded population exchange. Most probably in order to double the Greek population of Greece to make their country demographically viable.

[Stasi]

I always thought anti-semitism is the most straightforward Litmus paper for identifying fascists.

until your lovely Communism swept everything in a single generation.

First you call me a fascist and then assert that communism is appealing to me. Make up your mind, already. Pointing that there is a Turk-Jew partnership does not render one "anti-Semitic". It is a fact that Turkey is Israel's closest Muslim ally. Turkey trivialises the Armenian Genocide and the Jews follow along partially because the Turks are their pals and partly because they don't want anything to overshadow the Holocaust.

Good. Then, maybe you are kind enough to explain where their culture, language, religion and civilization are?

My goodness, you are immensely ignorant. These aboriginal peoples are classified as such because of their distinct customs and habits. They speak their own languages.

Well, my number (1,221,850) is the result of 1914 official population census, which is pretty much in agreement with 1,120,748 of 1906 census, which is pretty much in agreement with 1,001,465 of 1896 census.

The official census is highly questionable.

But, let me play along. If McCarthy's number was true, there would be 200,000 thousand survivors in 1915-1918. Then, please explain how the population of Armenians increased 20 fold within 90 years

First off, Armenia at the time was divided between Turkey and Russia. Russia's Armenians were not subject to Turkish massacres. The descendents of Turkey's Armenians are not in Russia but are in Iran, Iraq, Syria, and Lebanon. 3 million Armenians in Armenia, 2 million in Russia, 500k in Georgia amounts to 5.5 million non-Ottoman Armenians. There are in the Near East 200k Armenians in Iran, 100k in Syria, 100k in Lebanon, and 60k in Iraq. Add to this total about 100,000 Armenian immigrants from the Muslim world in France, and another 150,000 in America, there are under a million Armenians whose ancestors lived in Turkey.

Well, then tell us how they were converted. Were they forced? Were they thrown into fire if they rejected? How?

Through coercion. How else would conversion take place?

Then tell us how come only 70% of Albanians and 40% of Bosnians were converted, while Hungarians, Serbians, Bulgarians, Macedonians, Ukrainians etc, etc stayed solid Christians for hundreds of years and remained Christian until your lovely Communism swept everything in a single generation.

Christianity in Bosnia and Albania was not well established relative to neighbouring areas.

Perfectly round numbers to thousands. I will not even bother to ask the source.

If I say that "70,000 were murdered in the Paris Commune", asking for a source would be just a cheap way to dodge the statement. You could verify for yourself.

With all due respect, historically, I do not recall any time Russia has not been turned into madness. If they do not have foreign excuse, they create a reason domestically.

Russia was in an excellent shape from Ivan III until the disastrous 1905 war with Japan. It was again restored after 1922 and forged unprecedented economic growth. Except for the Crimean War, Russia smacked around Turkey in nearly a dozen wars.

Well, demand the same thing from me when Russians go back to Siberia, English to Norway and Denmark and white Americans to Europe. I will give you an answer at that time. Until that time, you can lick my shoes.

I don't object to white Americans going back to Europe. The bit about "Russians to Siberia" and "English to Norway" is absurd; the English (whose descendents are of Denmark, Holland, and Germany) merely replaced the withdrawn Romans. Kievan Rus, the earliest East Slavic state, was founded by a Viking.

For your information, there were more than 2 million Greeks in Anatolia when Turkish Republic was founded in 1923. Most of those Greeks were subjected to population exchange with Turks living in Greece.

2 million Greeks in their indigenous homeland is negligeable.

[Vanasalus]

My goodness, you are immensely ignorant. These aboriginal peoples are classified as such because of their distinct customs and habits. They speak their own languages.
....
The official census is highly questionable.

Well, as long as you keep your eyes closed for certain facts contracting your beliefs, everything is possible. But still remarkable indeed... I am pretty much sure if you were married to a Libyan camel, you would find necessary justifications, "proving" you are the luckiest man on this earth.

First off, Armenia at the time was divided between Turkey and Russia. Russia's Armenians were not subject to Turkish massacres. The descendents of Turkey's Armenians are not in Russia but are in Iran, Iraq, Syria, and Lebanon. 3 million Armenians in Armenia, 2 million in Russia, 500k in Georgia amounts to 5.5 million non-Ottoman Armenians. There are in the Near East 200k Armenians in Iran, 100k in Syria, 100k in Lebanon, and 60k in Iraq. Add to this total about 100,000 Armenian immigrants from the Muslim world in France, and another 150,000 in America, there are under a million Armenians whose ancestors lived in Turkey.

Someone needs quite improvement in reading comprehension. I already did the Algebra 2-3 posts ago. And, inability to understand is not enough. You distort the numbers as if none will pay attention.

For instance, you deflate the number of Armenians living in USA from 385,488 (according to 2000 census) to 150,000. Or, you slash the number of Armenians in France by ~50% as well as claming those Armenians are from some Arab countries or God knows, may be from Mars. Or, you imply neither Syrian nor Lebanese Armenians are from Turkey, although it is a solid fact that they exclusively are (excluding the small fraction of Catholic Armenians who have been living in Syria, Lebanon and Israel/Palestine for a millennia). On top, you do not dare to mention what percentage of Armenians living in republic of Armenia or Russia is the descendants of Ottoman Armenians.

My numbers are true numbers, taken from Armenians sources (not Turkish sources). What is your source? Your butt hole..?

Quote:

Well, then tell us how they(Albanians and Bosnians) were converted. Were they forced? Were they thrown into fire if they rejected? How?

Through coercion. How else would conversion take place

Source? Evidence? Anecdote?

Quote:

Then tell us how come only 70% of Albanians and 40% of Bosnians were converted, while Hungarians, Serbians, Bulgarians, Macedonians, Ukrainians etc, etc stayed solid Christians for hundreds of years and remained Christian until your lovely Communism swept everything in a single generation.

Christianity in Bosnia and Albania was not well established relative to neighbouring areas.

You are a funny boy, indeed. Somehow those devout Hungarian, Serbian, Bulgarians, Macedonian, Ukrainian Christian who defended their faith against "brutal" Ottoman administration for centuries, abandoned every inch of what their belief was in a single generation in 20th century under Soviet yoke. Pretty much interesting, is not it.

Well, Ottomans may be criticized for many things, mistakes or wrong doings. But religious persecution is not one of those. It is universally known fact. While tens of different nations believing tens of different religions/religious-sects in Ottoman Empire were worshipping in different temples along the same street in peace, Catholics and Protestants of a single nation /a single province/ a single city and even a single village were busy with slitting throat of each other and the church was busy with burning "heretics" in flame all around the Europe.

Get your facts straight. And, if you unbearably desire to hit me, hit me with proper means.

Russia was in an excellent shape from Ivan III until the disastrous 1905 war with Japan. It was again restored after 1922 and forged unprecedented economic growth. Except for the Crimean War, Russia smacked around Turkey in nearly a dozen wars.

Well, it is worth noting that you are unable to present a single true number in this forum so far. You are wrong when you say Russia beat Ottomans in nearly a dozen times. The truth is; there were 31 wars betweens two countries and Russia won almost two dozens of them. Not a dozen...

But, wait a moment... We were talking about what turns Russia into madness. If you imply victory is the reason behind Russian collective psycho-trauma, then the cure is quite easy...

I don't object to white Americans going back to Europe. The bit about "Russians to Siberia" and "English to Norway" is absurd; the English (whose descendents are of Denmark, Holland, and Germany) merely replaced the withdrawn Romans. Kievan Rus, the earliest East Slavic state, was founded by a Viking.

What a coincidence? Turks merely replaced withdrawn Roman Empire, some call it Easter Roman Empire and some call it Byzantium.

Anyway, you have the list of my demands. Fulfill them, and then ask Turks to leave their land. At that time, I will give you an answer. In the mean time, lick my shoes.

[Stasi]

For instance, you deflate the number of Armenians living in USA from 385,488 (according to 2000 census) to 150,000.

Hasn't it occurred to that a large share of the Armenians living in the West were originally from what used to be the USSR? In Los Angeles, where there is a formiddable number of Armenians, perhaps half immigrated from USSR. Armenians ended in the likes of Syria due entirely to the deportations in 1915. I shouldn't have to repeat myself in stating that the Armenians of what was the USSR did not have a trace to the Ottoman Empire.

Source? Evidence? Anecdote?

Non-Muslims were forced to pay additional taxes.

Somehow those devout Hungarian, Serbian, Bulgarians, Macedonian, Ukrainian Christian who defended their faith against "brutal" Ottoman administration for centuries, abandoned every inch of what their belief was in a single generation in 20th century under Soviet yoke.

Again with a reference to the USSR and communism. Where did you get the idea that Hungary and Bulgaria suddenly became non-religious after 1945? Poland is by far the most religious country in Europe.

But religious persecution is not one of those.

How do you explain the countless massacres of Greeks and Armenians? Did you even stare at the list of massacres I posted earlier? Whether interpreted as national or religious persecution, all of these savagery massacres cannot be denied.

Well, it is worth noting that you are unable to present a single true number in this forum so far. You are wrong when you say Russia beat Ottomans in nearly a dozen times. The truth is; there were 31 wars betweens two countries and Russia won almost two dozens of them. Not a dozen...

What the are you talking about? There were ten Russo-Turkish wars of which almost all were won by Russia.

1676-1681
1686-1700
1735-1939
1768-1774
1787-1792
1806-1812
1828-1829
1853-1856
1877-1878
1914-1918

What a coincidence? Turks merely replaced withdrawn Roman Empire, some call it Easter Roman Empire and some call it Byzantium.

The Romans did not withdraw from Byzantium. This is an inappropriate analogy. Germanic peoples in a land a few hundred miles away from where they originated is in stark contrast to barbaric Turkish invasions from Uzbekistan.

[Vanasalus]

Hasn't it occurred to that a large share of the Armenians living in the West were originally from what used to be the USSR?

Ultimate nonsense.

In Los Angeles, where there is a formiddable number of Armenians, perhaps half immigrated from USSR.

Of course, you have no reference for this fictitious claim, don’t you?.

Armenians ended in the likes of Syria due entirely to the deportations in 1915.

Just one post ago, you were excluding Syrian Armenians from the descendants of Ottoman Armenians. It seems you are as flexible as a belly dancer when you are changing your own opinions.

Non-Muslims were forced to pay additional taxes.

Big deal! You pay no tax, but at the same time, you have no obligation to serve in army at all. It seems quite a fair price, does not it

You also clearly imply that none was torched in flame because of his/her beliefs Ottoman realms. None were tortured to be converted. That is the bottom line. Rest is rumblings.

Again with a reference to the USSR and communism. Where did you get the idea that Hungary and Bulgaria suddenly became non-religious after 1945? Poland is by far the most religious country in Europe.

Well, Poland is not in my consideration because she was not an Ottoman province at all. On the other hand, Christianity, which was preserved for 532 years in Bulgaria under Ottoman administration, was swept in a single generation via Slav (Russian) yoke on Slavs (Bulgarians). The same story goes on for Macedonia, Serbia, Romania, Hungary, Ukraine, and Moldavia too.

If you still do not see, who can be blinder than someone who refuses to see?

How do you explain the countless massacres of Greeks and Armenians? Did you even stare at the list of massacres I posted earlier? Whether interpreted as national or religious persecution, all of these savagery massacres cannot be denied.

The magnitude of massacres, you mentioned earlier, do not have any reference. But, of course, that does not mean those events did not happen. Shit happens all the time, everywhere.

However, You go and check: how many perished by Spanish inquisition? How many in 30 year wars? How many in French revolution? How many in Napoleonic wars? How many during the colonization of America? How many during the shipment of African slaves? How many in WWII? How many in Holocaust? How many by Stalin?

Then, you look at the list of the massacres that you posted before. Though the numbers are highly inflated in your “holy” list, Turks seem like angels compared to "civilized" nations of world. Rest is rumblings...

What the are you talking about? There were ten Russo-Turkish wars of which almost all were won by Russia.

1676-1681
1686-1700
1735-1939
1768-1774
1787-1792
1806-1812
1828-1829
1853-1856
1877-1878
1914-1918

Sorry, my mistake. I meant battles, not wars.

On the other hand, in the list you share with is quite interesting, even for me. Apart form the few typo, you forgot to mention 1710-1713 war. Interesting thing is, Russia won only 5 out of 11 wars. Am I wrong?

The Romans did not withdraw from Byzantium. This is an inappropriate analogy. Germanic peoples in a land a few hundred miles away from where they originated is in stark contrast to barbaric Turkish invasions from Uzbekistan.

Well, I am well accustomed that my opponents tend to name Turks as "barbarians" when their tail is twisted in the debate. I will repeat my standard response. When my forefathers were ruling half of Asia, forefathers of your civilized world (excluding few exception) were probably swinging in the forest. I said "probably", because there is still a fair chance that they had never got down from trees to the ground at all. J

My non-standard response will be much better though. More relevant and accordingly to your struggle of diverting the discussion topic from Armenian question to a Turkish-Russian dick size contest: During the time when Alexander Nevsky was a little boy and princedom of Vladimir-Suzdal (Unfortunately, Russia did not exist at that time yet) was ass pounding bitch of Teutonic knights, Turkic nations were ruling Central Asia, western China, northern India, Persia, Anatolia, Egypt and southern half of today’s Russia remaining in the western side of Urals. So, before you start debates circling around "civilized-barbaric" slender in historical debates, choose your opponent more carefully. Just a friendly advice...

[Stasi]

Ultimate nonsense.

You're essentially stating that there are NO Armenians in the West that moved from the USSR. If anything, you're being nonsensical.

Of course, you have no reference for this fictitious claim, don’t you?.

http://publications.childrennow.org/ass ... origin.pdf

1992: Armenia is behind Iran in highest number of immigrants in California. By the way, Persian Armenians are not traced to Ottoman Armenians.

Just one post ago, you were excluding Syrian Armenians from the descendants of Ottoman Armenians.

No, I said that Armenians in Syria along with those in Iraq and Lebanon are the descendents of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire. You've misrepresented my statements.

Well, Poland is not in my consideration because she was not an Ottoman province at all. On the other hand, Christianity, which was preserved for 532 years in Bulgaria under Ottoman administration, was swept in a single generation via Slav (Russian) yoke on Slavs (Bulgarians).

No, it was not. These countries are still religious.

How many massacres in Europe starting in the 19th century? Those massacres of the Ottoman Empire were during the 19th century and thus it's fair only to compare Europe during the same period.

Then, you look at the list of the massacres that you posted before. Though the numbers are highly inflated in your “holy” list, Turks seem like angels compared to "civilized" nations of world.

Yes, the angels that just about every group under their oppression rebelled against.

Am I wrong?

1676-1681 - Russian victory
1686-1700 - Russian victory
1735-1939 - Russian victory
1768-1774 - Russian victory
1787-1792 - Russian victory
1806-1812 - Russian victory
1828-1829 - Russian victory
1853-1856 - Turkish victory (due to alliance with France, England, and Sardinia)
1877-1878 - Russian victory
1914-1918 - Russia was winning until the revolution

When my forefathers were ruling half of Asia, forefathers of your civilized world (excluding few exception) were probably swinging in the forest.

Who cares about the past? The point is that your people lag far behind the European cultures. Look at how you now endlessly solicit in joining the EU even when you refuse to acknowledge the existence of Cyprus. The simple reply to Turkey should be "fuck off."

The peoples of ancient Greece and Rome were infinitely more civilised than the current peoples to which you trace your heritage.

[Vanasalus]

You're essentially stating that there are NO Armenians in the West that moved from the USSR. If anything, you're being nonsensical.

You should have known better that the immigration was not that easy from USSR to free world. Ding-dong... Iron curtain

http://publications.childrennow.org/assets/pdf/policy/rc04/ca-rc-charts-origin.pdf

1992: Armenia is behind Iran in highest number of immigrants in California. By the way, Persian Armenians are not traced to Ottoman Armenians

Well, the source refer does not phrase how many Armenian immigrants moved to California. It says Armenians were 9th most crowded immigrant rate in 1992, but it does not say whether 1,000 or 1,000,000.

And 2002 list even does not posses Armenians in the list. And, It is worth noting that you try prove most of American Armenians are ex-USSR origin based on 1992 data, which does not give any quantitative magnitude about the extent of Armenian immigration
God, I admire ignorance...

No, I said that Armenians in Syria along with those in Iraq and Lebanon are the descendents of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire. You've misrepresented my statements.

If you are short of memory or unaware of what you are writing, it is not my problem. Scroll up and see what yourself wrote.

No, it was not. These countries are still religious.

You mean Bulgaria or Ukraine or etc... Please, do not insult yourself anymore...

How many massacres in Europe starting in the 19th century? Those massacres of the Ottoman Empire were during the 19th century and thus it's fair only to compare Europe during the same period.

Well, I see some development now. You are dropping your charges against Ottoman wrongdoings at 18th century or before. It is also worth noting that you are dropping your allegations that Ottomans were converting her subjects by force.

Well, 19th century... Lets see what remains in my original list. There it is: How many perished in Napoleonic wars? How many during the colonization of America? How many during the shipment of African slaves? How many in WWII? How many in Holocaust? How many by Stalin? If you need more, I can extend the list beyond your imagination.

Yes, the angels that just about every group under their oppression rebelled against.

Well, I do not recall any empire in the history, which gives up land without a struggle to those who rebel against the central government. Since we have no claim like we are God-chosen people or we are the people bound to higher moral principles than the others, I am afraid you should accept those 19th century rebellions as well as Ottoman response to those rebels as “normal” and “natural” in the scope of 19th century...

1676-1681 - Russian victory
1686-1700 - Russian victory
1735-1939 - Russian victory
1768-1774 - Russian victory
1787-1792 - Russian victory
1806-1812 - Russian victory
1828-1829 - Russian victory
1853-1856 - Turkish victory (due to alliance with France, England, and Sardinia)
1877-1878 - Russian victory
1914-1918 - Russia was winning until the revolution

As I said before, nobody is as blind as the one who refuses to see. For those who are interested in, here is the fastest source I found about Russo-Turkish wars. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Turkish_War

Who cares about the past?

I thought you care. You are the one who labeled Turkish migration into Anatolia as Barbarian invasion. And, I just reminded that when those "barbarians" were invading Anatolia, your ancestors were most probaly barely standing on two feet. It is true: I do not care much about the past, but if someone tries to distort it, I am here to educate for free.

The point is that your people lag far behind the European cultures. Look at how you now endlessly solicit in joining the EU even when you refuse to acknowledge the existence of Cyprus. The simple reply to Turkey should be "fuck off."

Yawn… Boring... Next...

The peoples of ancient Greece and Rome were infinitely more civilised than the current peoples to which you trace your heritage.

If you read my previous post, you would see: "excluding few exceptions".
Read me more carefully my sweetheart.

[Stasi]

You should have known better that the immigration was not that easy from USSR to free world. Ding-dong... Iron curtain

You're being moronic with your "free world" and "iron curtain" rhetoric. Drop it already.

Well, the source refer does not phrase how many Armenian immigrants moved to California. It says Armenians were 9th most crowded immigrant rate in 1992, but it does not say whether 1,000 or 1,000,000.

You've got problems with reading comprhension. The page distinctly states "number of persons" entering California.

And 2002 list even does not posses Armenians in the list. And, It is worth noting that you try prove most of American Armenians are ex-USSR origin based on 1992 data, which does not give any quantitative magnitude about the extent of Armenian immigration

I never said that most American Armenians are of the USSR. Yet another misrepresentation of my statements.

If you are short of memory or unaware of what you are writing, it is not my problem. Scroll up and see what yourself wrote.

Yet a continuation of your earlier misrepresentation of my statements. I shall resort to quoting myself:

"Armenians ended in the likes of Syria due entirely to the deportations in 1915"

You mean Bulgaria or Ukraine or etc...

Yet another insinuation coming from I don't know where. You try to present yourself as someone with undeniable knowledge on topics that are not even very highly scrutinised. Your theory that Communism has somehow destroyed religion in eastern Europe has been exposed by Poland's extraordinary high rate of church attendance. The likes of Bulgaria and Romania are not too far behind from the likes of Spain and Italy in terms of church attendance.

It is also worth noting that you are dropping your allegations that Ottomans were converting her subjects by force.

They did convert subjects with coercion. Your just dodging the issue.

Well, 19th century... Lets see what remains in my original list. There it is: How many perished in Napoleonic wars? How many during the colonization of America? How many during the shipment of African slaves? How many in WWII? How many in Holocaust? How many by Stalin? If you need more, I can extend the list beyond your imagination.

The colonisation of America together with the shipement of African slaves took place during the 16th and 17th centuries.

World War II took place during the 20th century.

Stalin lived much of his life in the 20th century.

[Thunderhawk]

circa 1910 in the Ottoman empire..


If a person's father is Assyrian/Kurd/minority, and the mother Armenian, what would the Ottoman authorities consider/label that person?

What about a person who is 3/4 Armenian and had a Turk as his paternal grandfather and kept his name, but culturally Armenian, be considered?


What about Armenian merchants who lived in cities for generations, and converted to Islam?
those that changed their name to a Turkish one?
both?

And in all these cases, if was advatagous for the Armenians to not call themselves officially armenians, but secretly still consdiered themselves to be Armenians, then would it not account for the population difference?

[Vanasalus]

You're being moronic with your "free world" and "iron curtain" rhetoric. Drop it already.

Well, I have no intention to discuss about rhetoric. On the other hand, images of those who were shot dead while trying to run from East Germany to west is pretty much vivid in our memories. Thus, claiming a massive Armenian immigration from USSR to California seems pretty much baseless, unless you provide a reliable source.

You've got problems with reading comprhension. The page distinctly states "number of persons" entering California.

Go back and check your reference again. it states no single number. In other words, it is just a ranking list for 1992 which does not state how many Armenians moved into California in 1992. Rest is rumblings.

The likes of Bulgaria and Romania are not too far behind from the likes of Spain and Italy in terms of church attendance.

Proof?

They did convert subjects with coercion. Your just dodging the issue.

But, you have failed to refer any reference proving this allegation. Plus, you do not have any explanation why this “forced conversion” thing was applied to half of Bosnians and Albanians while no other Christian nation under Ottoman rule stayed solid Christians for long centuries.

The colonisation of America together with the shipement of African slaves took place during the 16th and 17th centuries.

World War II took place during the 20th century.

Stalin lived much of his life in the 20th century.

I start loving this conversation. First, we exclude before 19th century. Now, we are excluding post 19th century. So, we are focusing on Ottoman crimes on just 19th century.

OK. Then we should delete Armenian genocide in 1915 from your list, because, for my humble opinion, 1915 is in 20th century.

For the slavery issue... Slavery was abolished in USA in 1864, UK in 1838, France in 1848, Holland in 1863 and Brazil in 1888.

Genocide of American Indians occurred mainly through 19th century while country is expanding toward west.
And a humble personal suggestion: Do not have a conviction before you have knowledge.